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alldaway

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#120 : January 10, 2010, 02:26:22 PM

Well I thought about it but a NT is more important than a strong safety when it comes to stopping the run.  And having a capable second corner is important despite what many believe about the scheme given increased passing trends.



I disagree about NT. NT in the Tampa 2 has been effectively manned by lesser talents such as Culpepper and Darby. It's not a place I'd allocate to a high end talent. That's why Cody....who'd certainly be an effective NT....is just a bad fit for this defense. SS is a more important position for the Tampa 2....all things being equal.

The strong safties in the Tampa 2 are not manned by extra ordinary talents either.  The foundation for any effective 4-3 defense is two capable DT's and a mike LB which applies to the Tampa 2 as well.  Gap integrity for a SS is important to negate big home run plays, but if the NT can't attack the gap to force double teams then teams will consistently generate good yardage on the ground.

Of course if the NT sucks then it immediately becomes more important than the SS. If both are doing their jobs, the SS is more important.

The worth of the strong safety in Tampa 2 has been inflated because of John Lynch who was not an ordinary safety.  But I can't justify having a Tampa 2 strong safety higher on the list based on importance.  If I had a choice between Brian Kelly (CB2) and Jermaine Phillips (SS) versus Dwight Smith (CB2) and John Lynch (SS) I am choosing the Brian Kelly/Jermaine Phillips combo.  You could argue Lynch is the best splash player of the four players, but Kelly is simply too important to ignore as the #2 CB in an pass happy league.




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#121 : January 10, 2010, 02:27:55 PM

If you think about the three successful T2 teams of the 2000s, the three SS's (Lynch, Bob Sanders, Mike Brown) are immediately more familiar than the NT's.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#122 : January 10, 2010, 02:52:46 PM


The worth of the strong safety in Tampa 2 has been inflated because of John Lynch who was not an ordinary safety.  But I can't justify having a Tampa 2 strong safety higher on the list based on importance.  If I had a choice between Brian Kelly (CB2) and Jermaine Phillips (SS) versus Dwight Smith (CB2) and John Lynch (SS) I am choosing the Brian Kelly/Jermaine Phillips combo.  You could argue Lynch is the best splash player of the four players, but Kelly is simply too important to ignore as the #2 CB in an pass happy league.


Brian Kelly was a much better player than Dwight Smith. Jermaine Phillips post 2006 was comparable to John Lynch. Prior to that he was awful and on the verge of being replaced. Recall how crappy the defense looked at that point. I don't think those are like comparisons.

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#123 : January 10, 2010, 02:57:10 PM

If you think about the three successful T2 teams of the 2000s, the three SS's (Lynch, Bob Sanders, Mike Brown) are immediately more familiar than the NT's.

And the downfall of those teams defensively is a decline in NT/UT play not because of strong safety play.  You could make that argument with Colts and the unique case with Bob Sanders in recent memory, but the Colts defense forged forward without him this year.   The importance of the strong safety in the Tampa 2 scheme is one of the biggest myths right up there with the myth that the Tampa 2 can't stop rushing attacks.


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#124 : January 10, 2010, 02:58:56 PM


The worth of the strong safety in Tampa 2 has been inflated because of John Lynch who was not an ordinary safety.  But I can't justify having a Tampa 2 strong safety higher on the list based on importance.  If I had a choice between Brian Kelly (CB2) and Jermaine Phillips (SS) versus Dwight Smith (CB2) and John Lynch (SS) I am choosing the Brian Kelly/Jermaine Phillips combo.  You could argue Lynch is the best splash player of the four players, but Kelly is simply too important to ignore as the #2 CB in an pass happy league.


Brian Kelly was a much better player than Dwight Smith. Jermaine Phillips post 2006 was comparable to John Lynch. Prior to that he was awful and on the verge of being replaced. Recall how crappy the defense looked at that point. I don't think those are like comparisons.

Kelly indeed was a better CB than Dwight and likewise Phillips in my opinion did not surpass Lynch as a strong safety.  I would gladly take a very good #2 CB/above average SS over an above average #2 CB/very good SS.

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#125 : January 10, 2010, 03:01:03 PM

If you think about the three successful T2 teams of the 2000s, the three SS's (Lynch, Bob Sanders, Mike Brown) are immediately more familiar than the NT's.

And the downfall of those teams defensively is a decline in NT/UT play not because of strong safety play.  You could make that argument with Colts and the unique case with Bob Sanders in recent memory, but the Colts defense forged forward without him this year.   The importance of the strong safety in the Tampa 2 scheme is one of the biggest myths right up there with the myth that the Tampa 2 can't stop rushing attacks.



The year the Colts won the Super Bowl, with Booger at UT the Colts defense was getting gashed. When Sanders came back from injury nobody could run on them.

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#126 : January 10, 2010, 03:02:38 PM


The worth of the strong safety in Tampa 2 has been inflated because of John Lynch who was not an ordinary safety.  But I can't justify having a Tampa 2 strong safety higher on the list based on importance.  If I had a choice between Brian Kelly (CB2) and Jermaine Phillips (SS) versus Dwight Smith (CB2) and John Lynch (SS) I am choosing the Brian Kelly/Jermaine Phillips combo.  You could argue Lynch is the best splash player of the four players, but Kelly is simply too important to ignore as the #2 CB in an pass happy league.


Brian Kelly was a much better player than Dwight Smith. Jermaine Phillips post 2006 was comparable to John Lynch. Prior to that he was awful and on the verge of being replaced. Recall how crappy the defense looked at that point. I don't think those are like comparisons.


I like Phillips but I don't think he ever played up to a John Lynch level. The Bucs haven't had a player that could "lay the wood" like John Lynch since John Lynch.

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#127 : January 10, 2010, 03:05:23 PM


The worth of the strong safety in Tampa 2 has been inflated because of John Lynch who was not an ordinary safety.  But I can't justify having a Tampa 2 strong safety higher on the list based on importance.  If I had a choice between Brian Kelly (CB2) and Jermaine Phillips (SS) versus Dwight Smith (CB2) and John Lynch (SS) I am choosing the Brian Kelly/Jermaine Phillips combo.  You could argue Lynch is the best splash player of the four players, but Kelly is simply too important to ignore as the #2 CB in an pass happy league.


Brian Kelly was a much better player than Dwight Smith. Jermaine Phillips post 2006 was comparable to John Lynch. Prior to that he was awful and on the verge of being replaced. Recall how crappy the defense looked at that point. I don't think those are like comparisons.


I like Phillips but I don't think he ever played up to a John Lynch level. The Bucs haven't had a player that could "lay the wood" like John Lynch since John Lynch.

My point was really that Flip was a lot closer to Lynch than Smith was to Kelly. I think this portion of the thread is beginning to go off the rails.

Happy and Peppy and Bursting with love.

alldaway

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#128 : January 10, 2010, 03:07:21 PM

If you think about the three successful T2 teams of the 2000s, the three SS's (Lynch, Bob Sanders, Mike Brown) are immediately more familiar than the NT's.

And the downfall of those teams defensively is a decline in NT/UT play not because of strong safety play.  You could make that argument with Colts and the unique case with Bob Sanders in recent memory, but the Colts defense forged forward without him this year.   The importance of the strong safety in the Tampa 2 scheme is one of the biggest myths right up there with the myth that the Tampa 2 can't stop rushing attacks.



The year the Colts won the Super Bowl, with Booger at UT the Colts defense was getting gashed. When Sanders came back from injury nobody could run on them.

Booger was the difference for the Colts that year and why they felt it was a worthwhile trade since they won it all.


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#129 : January 10, 2010, 07:01:11 PM

But if Berry is viewed as an elite player why wouldn't the team pull the trigger on him? 

Because you don't need an elite player at that position for the scheme you run. Put it another way -- I'd rather pass on a guy who ranks 99/100 at a position that isn't important to get a guy who ranks 98 or 97/100 at a position that's crucially important. Especially when you factor in the huge contract they'll be forced to hand out because of the pick number.

alldaway

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#130 : January 10, 2010, 07:11:02 PM

But if Berry is viewed as an elite player why wouldn't the team pull the trigger on him?�

Because you don't need an elite player at that position for the scheme you run. Put it another way -- I'd rather pass on a guy who ranks 99/100 at a position that isn't important to get a guy who ranks 98 or 97/100 at a position that's crucially important. Especially when you factor in the huge contract they'll be forced to hand out because of the pick number.


But the player that is graded as a 97 or 98 is still an elite player just as that 99 player.  But if we are talking a significant gap even if the player does not occupy a premium position you still have to consider such a player strongly.


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#131 : January 10, 2010, 07:58:10 PM

McClain, then Price

Have to agree with this...with a WR as 2B, a corner at 3 and Myron Rolle at 4.

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#132 : January 10, 2010, 08:00:40 PM

Myron Rolle is not good at football.
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