Measuring Explosiveness: Suh vs McCoy

[yuccaneers]

Many have stated they think McCoy is the superior player when it comes to being explosive. So by using Pat Kirwans idea on how to measure the explosiveness of prospects by taking bench press reps, vertical jump and the broad jump and adding all three together to get a cumulative score. Here is how they stack up in terms of explosiveness.

Suh
Bench Reps 32
vertical Jump 35.5
Broad Jump 9
Cumulative explosion score 76.5

McCoy
Bench Reps 23
vertical Jump 30.5
Broad Jump 9.5
Cumulative explosion score 63.0

When you factor in forty times, production on the field and the ability of Suh to elevate the play of players around him there is no way that McCoy should every be rated above Suh in any environment or scheme.

[BuccinTex]

I would agree with your conclusion except that the NFL and predicting the success of rookies isn't exact.     I'd be happy with landing either of them.   

[yuccaneers]

While McCoy represents the consolation prize for not landing Suh, its not a bad consolation prize at that. But for everyone to disregard Suh's production and ability on the field to greatly impact the players that play along side him and have put McCoy above Suh its ludicrous.

Now McCoy is not a bad player and if Suh was not in this draft he would be the number one rated defensive tackle prospect but he should not be ranked above Suh.

[colabucsfan]

what is really being compared is the players upside, most experts believe Mccoy has a lot more upside then Suh, They all agree Suh is the better run stopper but McCoy has the better pass rushing ability,

Suh shows in college he can get to the QB but he does it by a bull rush, some experts believe he wont be able to bully the OG's in the NFL like he did in college, McCoy relied more on his first step and pass rushing moves and with some more coaching will be a beast.

I agree with you all 1rst SUH  2nd McCoy. All I can go by is production, they both play in the same conference and go against close to the same teams, but SUH numbers are twice what McCoy did. Who ever becomes a Buc I will say is the best player.

[Mean D]

Watch film from 2009.  I really don't know how people think they are close.  Even if you (all of a sudden) completely disregard the combine, Suh dominate McCoy.  We need Suh.  Not the consolation prize.

[SonnyCrockett]

That "explosion score" is a really dumb way to make a comparison.

[Madman]

I started a thread on this a couple weeks ago. The KEI has some merit. Here's the re-post...

Pat Kirwan is a former NFL Scout/FO�exec-turned writer/analyst who came up with his own metric called the Kirwan Explosiveness Index (KEI).

While 40 times and other agility drills stand on their own merits, KEI grades a player’s explosive power . NFL teams are always looking to add explosive players to their roster, and KEI is a way to bundle that ability into an overall rating. In a nutshell, Kirwan looks for a score of 70 when combining the results of a player’s vertical jump, broad jump and bench press. For example a 35� vertical, a 25 bench press, and 10 ft. broad jump would yield the magical 70 threshold. While not foolproof, KEI does correlate very positively to superior athletic performance and explosiveness.

To illustrate, Kirwan examines 4 rush DE/OLB from the 2007 draft. All four players are very similar in size and college football production. This represents 80% of the overall player evaluation.

Anthony Spencer  (KEI: 71.80)
LaMarr Woodley   (KEI: 77.30)
Tim Crowder         (KEI: 71.75)
Charles Johnson   (KEI: 75.80)

All four are similar in terms of speed (40 & 10) and agility (SS & 3C), however, not in terms of explosiveness. While all four break the KEI threshold of 70, LaMarr Woodley clearly stands out. This then represents the remaining 20% of the evaluation, so the selection, if I were drafting, would be LaMarr Woodley.

One other thing to add is that not all measures of KEI are created equal. Due to deviations in tested performance, not all benchmarks carry the same weighted value. For example, bench reps tend to be overvalued since player’s can average anywhere from 10 to 40 reps. So, just keep in mind that a 70 KEI pass rusher (BR-24, VJ-36, BJ-10) does not describe the same type of prospect as a 70 KEI offensive tackle (BR-32, VJ-30, BJ-8).

In summary, knowing how to judiciously apply measures of athletic ability -- speed, agility, and explosiveness (KEI), can make all the difference between selecting a Pro Bowl player to just a merely good one.

http://pit.scout.com/2/838814.html

[Obamessiah]

Suh shows in college he can get to the QB but he does it by a bull rush, some experts believe he wont be able to bully the OG's in the NFL like he did in college, McCoy relied more on his first step and pass rushing moves and with some more coaching will be a beast.

I'm thinking it will be a lot easier to teach McCoy's pass rushing moves to Suh than it will be to teach Suh's strength to McCoy.

[yuccaneers]

I started a thread on this a couple weeks ago. The KEI has some merit. Here's the re-post...

Pat Kirwan is a former NFL Scout/FO—exec-turned writer/analyst who came up with his own metric called the Kirwan Explosiveness Index (KEI).

While 40 times and other agility drills stand on their own merits, KEI grades a player’s explosive power . NFL teams are always looking to add explosive players to their roster, and KEI is a way to bundle that ability into an overall rating. In a nutshell, Kirwan looks for a score of 70 when combining the results of a player’s vertical jump, broad jump and bench press. For example a 35� vertical, a 25 bench press, and 10 ft. broad jump would yield the magical 70 threshold. While not foolproof, KEI does correlate very positively to superior athletic performance and explosiveness.

To illustrate, Kirwan examines 4 rush DE/OLB from the 2007 draft. All four players are very similar in size and college football production. This represents 80% of the overall player evaluation.

Anthony Spencer  (KEI: 71.80)
LaMarr Woodley   (KEI: 77.30)
Tim Crowder         (KEI: 71.75)
Charles Johnson   (KEI: 75.80)

All four are similar in terms of speed (40 & 10) and agility (SS & 3C), however, not in terms of explosiveness. While all four break the KEI threshold of 70, LaMarr Woodley clearly stands out. This then represents the remaining 20% of the evaluation, so the selection, if I were drafting, would be LaMarr Woodley.

One other thing to add is that not all measures of KEI are created equal. Due to deviations in tested performance, not all benchmarks carry the same weighted value. For example, bench reps tend to be overvalued since player’s can average anywhere from 10 to 40 reps. So, just keep in mind that a 70 KEI pass rusher (BR-24, VJ-36, BJ-10) does not describe the same type of prospect as a 70 KEI offensive tackle (BR-32, VJ-30, BJ-8).

In summary, knowing how to judiciously apply measures of athletic ability -- speed, agility, and explosiveness (KEI), can make all the difference between selecting a Pro Bowl player to just a merely good one.

http://pit.scout.com/2/838814.html

Thanks for posting

[buccaneerbruce76]

While McCoy represents the consolation prize for not landing Suh, its not a bad consolation prize at that. But for everyone to disregard Suh's production and ability on the field to greatly impact the players that play along side him and have put McCoy above Suh its ludicrous.

Now McCoy is not a bad player and if Suh was not in this draft he would be the number one rated defensive tackle prospect but he should not be ranked above Suh.
[/quote

On point.

[cheveliar]

Suh shows in college he can get to the QB but he does it by a bull rush, some experts believe he wont be able to bully the OG's in the NFL like he did in college, McCoy relied more on his first step and pass rushing moves and with some more coaching will be a beast.

I'm thinking it will be a lot easier to teach McCoy's pass rushing moves to Suh than it will be to teach Suh's strength to McCoy.

+1 and +1 again....

[TBayXXXVII]

I've stated this on the Insider board, but I figured that I'd throw it over here as well...

I've never really watched Suh or McCoy, or really any other DT play... I just don't find focusing in on college defense to be all that entertaining.  That being said, there's just too much statistical data out there that really scares me about taking McCoy if Suh is gone.  Comparing McCoy's last 2 years against Odrick, Price, Alualu, and Houston... I'm not impressed AT ALL.  I don't even know what really separates him from these other guys.  Alualu seems to be the best tackler in the bunch.  I think I'd rather the Bucs trade out of #3 as long as Suh is not there, reguardless if McCoy is there or not.

[CyberDilemma]

Many have stated they think McCoy is the superior player when it comes to being explosive. So by using Pat Kirwans idea on how to measure the explosiveness of prospects by taking bench press reps, vertical jump and the broad jump and adding all three together to get a cumulative score. Here is how they stack up in terms of explosiveness.

Suh
Bench Reps 32
vertical Jump 35.5
Broad Jump 9
Cumulative explosion score 76.5

McCoy
Bench Reps 23
vertical Jump 30.5
Broad Jump 9.5
Cumulative explosion score 63.0

When you factor in forty times, production on the field and the ability of Suh to elevate the play of players around him there is no way that McCoy should every be rated above Suh in any environment or scheme.

The Buc's Roy Miller's cumulative explosion score exceeded both of these guys'...

Miller
Bench Reps 36
vertical Jump 32.0
Broad Jump 8.7
Cumulative explosion score 76.7

well that just screwed things up... 

[Mean D]

I don't understand how anyone thinks McCoy is better than Suh.