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#15 : March 07, 2007, 10:24:44 AM

Look the bottom line as I'm concerned is that Plummer wants to play. Retirement was just a smokescreen and we're gonna get more from Houston than a 7th..this year or next. That's a good move. Plummer isn't stupid, he knows he needs to get himself out of this situation and into a better one, Houston or wherever. Now both sides are motivated and that can't be a bad thing. Good move Bruce!

I agree its a great move, But for the record if he plays its a 4th round pick we lose, so we need more then that. If he retires then its a seventh.

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#16 : March 07, 2007, 10:25:42 AM

Look the bottom line as I'm concerned is that Plummer wants to play. Retirement was just a smokescreen and we're gonna get more from Houston than a 7th..this year or next. That's a good move. Plummer isn't stupid, he knows he needs to get himself out of this situation and into a better one, Houston or wherever. Now both sides are motivated and that can't be a bad thing. Good move Bruce!
agreed


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#17 : March 07, 2007, 10:45:04 AM

They are but the point is that teams can't recover lost money due to holdouts. This brings back up my plan whihc is Jake reports, costs us $5.3m in cap room and holds out. The answer to that plan was we'll just steal his signing bonus back and make a ton of jack but if you can't recover bonus money under the new CBA can we still do that?

It's an interesting question dalbuc, but you've turned "limited" into "can't;" Also, I'm curious about the report/hold out thing - can you both report and hold out? And how does the cap work in that case?

Also, I really don't think it's going to get to this - Allen has shown that in these matters his patience is infinite; IF Plummer really wants to play for Houston and Kubiak really wants him to play for him, then they are ill-served by shenanigans like that. At some point they are going to realize that they are going to have to pay something for him, and the floor for that payment is a 4th round pick in 2008. Having Plummer holding out until May or June in order to get him for free also hurts the Texans - they can't get Plummer working with his teamates, and it also limits their ability to get value for David Carr, which presumably they would want to do. That's why I think it's much more likely that a trade happens relatively soon and probably no later than the NFL Draft.

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#18 : March 07, 2007, 10:52:02 AM

My thought is that Kubiak sorta pist Shanahan off when he left, therefore, Shanny isn't real fond of "doing business" with HOU.  So, the Bucs get Plummer's rights, only to swap him for Carr.

Makes sense to me.


First of Prefer, fantastic sig. Second, I'm not sure it's a case of ill will. Houston, by the H-Chronicle's John McClain account, just doesn't want to burn a draft pick since they are still rebuilding. They thought they could call Shanny's bluff and he'd just end up cutting Plummer.  And the longer Shanny held on to Plummer, the more leverage Houston would have. That's why Shanny had to make a deal with someone else.

It's just poker - I don't get the sense that there was any animosity involved - I mean Kubiak passed on jobs for at least a couple of years when he could have left Shanny.

To the extent there's animosity, I would guess it's between Plummer and Shanny - I know it's a business, but that had to hurt when they moved up to grab Cutler.

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#19 : March 07, 2007, 10:54:04 AM

THe longer Houston waits, the higher his price gets. 

I don't get why people here are suddenly surprised by this.  This was clear all along.  Jake's not retiring, he's getting traded.

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#20 : March 07, 2007, 10:55:01 AM

My thought is that Kubiak sorta pist Shanahan off when he left, therefore, Shanny isn't real fond of "doing business" with HOU.  So, the Bucs get Plummer's rights, only to swap him for Carr.

Makes sense to me.


First of Prefer, fantastic sig. Second, I'm not sure it's a case of ill will. Houston, by the H-Chronicle's John McClain account, just doesn't want to burn a draft pick since they are still rebuilding. They thought they could call Shanny's bluff and he'd just end up cutting Plummer.  And the longer Shanny held on to Plummer, the more leverage Houston would have. That's why Shanny had to make a deal with someone else.

It's just poker - I don't get the sense that there was any animosity involved - I mean Kubiak passed on jobs for at least a couple of years when he could have left Shanny.

To the extent there's animosity, I would guess it's between Plummer and Shanny - I know it's a business, but that had to hurt when they moved up to grab Cutler.

It's not Kubiak/Denver that have a bad relationship.  It's Jake and denver.  Kubiak was just trying to take advantage of that.

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#21 : March 07, 2007, 10:58:01 AM

At some point they are going to realize that they are going to have to pay something for him, and the floor for that payment is a 4th round pick in 2008. Having Plummer holding out until May or June in order to get him for free also hurts the Texans - they can't get Plummer working with his teamates, and it also limits their ability to get value for David Carr, which presumably they would want to do. That's why I think it's much more likely that a trade happens relatively soon and probably no later than the NFL Draft.

It has to be a 3rd because HOU's 4th is worse than our 4th. HOU is gonna have to get really stupid to make that deal. Best we get is Carr who functionally has zero value so we traded an R4 for a player not worth an R4.

We wanted him to be our QB, we got burned because someone didn't do the research and now we're hoping HOU tosses us a life preserver to make this all look really good. I doubt they are horribly inclined to so.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

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#22 : March 07, 2007, 11:02:27 AM

What I think probably happened was there was a wink-nod agreement between Kubiak and Plummer where Plummer would refuse to sign a new contract with another team, making it hard for the Broncos to trade him and his $5+ million salary, and hard for the Broncos who have salary cap issues to hold onto him. The Broncos love to wheel and deal, so I wouldn't be surprised if this is just as much their idea as it is ours. Find another team who has cap space and who can afford to sit on Plummer for a few months to be the medium for performing a trade. I am willing to bet that the draft pick Denver gets from us for Plummer is also contingent on any draft pick or player which we recieve for Plummer. For us there aren't many scenarios where we lose.



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#23 : March 07, 2007, 11:04:11 AM



We wanted him to be our QB, we got burned because someone didn't do the research and now we're hoping HOU tosses us a life preserver to make this all look really good. I doubt they are horribly inclined to so.

We went thru w/ the trade after we got Garcia... how did we "get burned"?

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#24 : March 07, 2007, 11:08:10 AM

We went thru w/ the trade after we got Garcia... how did we "get burned"?

Garcia is plan B, plan A failed. That's called making a mistake and frankly being petty about our mistake but if there is anything Allen is it is a small man.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

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#25 : March 07, 2007, 11:09:42 AM

At some point they are going to realize that they are going to have to pay something for him, and the floor for that payment is a 4th round pick in 2008. Having Plummer holding out until May or June in order to get him for free also hurts the Texans - they can't get Plummer working with his teamates, and it also limits their ability to get value for David Carr, which presumably they would want to do. That's why I think it's much more likely that a trade happens relatively soon and probably no later than the NFL Draft.

It has to be a 3rd because HOU's 4th is worse than our 4th. HOU is gonna have to get really stupid to make that deal. Best we get is Carr who functionally has zero value so we traded an R4 for a player not worth an R4.

We wanted him to be our QB, we got burned because someone didn't do the research and now we're hoping HOU tosses us a life preserver to make this all look really good. I doubt they are horribly inclined to so.

Well, number 1, we don't know how the conditions are worded.  Number 2, Houston's 4th is worse than our 4th in 2007 - we don't know how it will shake out in 2008. What if it's a 4th this year? Or what if it's Houston's fourth next year or one or more late round picks?

I think the notion that we are going to get some lopsided value out of this deal is wrong; but for little to no risk, we have a pretty good chance to get something > than we gave up.

I think I would have worded your last sentence this way - we wanted him to be our QB, but it didn't work out, so we backed out of the deal. We then made a different deal with all kinds of conditions (and a lower price because it's a 2008 fourth at best, not a 2007 4th) because we now value Plummer not as a real live QB, but as a pawn to trade.

Had we gone through with the first deal, I would have totally agreed that we were just hoping HOU tosses us a life preserver. But now we aren't drowning.



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#26 : March 07, 2007, 11:11:23 AM

We went thru w/ the trade after we got Garcia... how did we "get burned"?

Garcia is plan B, plan A failed. That's called making a mistake and frankly being petty about our mistake but if there is anything Allen is it is a small man.

While I agree that Jake was their first choice, they followed thru with the trade AFTER we got Garcia.... i'm still not getting how we "got burned".

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#27 : March 07, 2007, 11:15:27 AM

I meant to add Dalbuc, that your comment about Houston's stupidity in dealing with the Bucs assumes that Houston's just content to run with Carr again - I'm not so sure that's the case.

Don't get me wrong, you make some good points - but I think the worst deal will end up as a swapping of deck chairs, at best we'll get a little something extra.

And as for Carr have little value, well if we got Carr it would give us options with either Carr or Simms. And with teams bringing in guys like Anthony Wright to talk with them any live arm has some value.

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#28 : March 07, 2007, 11:19:12 AM

While I agree that Jake was their first choice, they followed thru with the trade AFTER we got Garcia.... i'm still not getting how we "got burned".

Wow, mental disconnect. First half of your sentence explains that clause at the end. We wanted Plummer to be our QB, and failed to achieve that because we failed to ask him how he'd feel about a move and a lower salary. That's bad FO work, period. You have to check on these thing, particularly if you want to re-do a deal. At that point we traded for a player that won't pay here in the hope that we can trade him for something else. If we knew we could, he'd be gone already.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

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#29 : March 07, 2007, 11:20:56 AM

What's going to be hilarious is when all of the sports writers and media types (Mike Tirico specifically) who penned or recorded all these paeans to Jake Plummer, about how he wants to walk the earth in search of adventure, save starving kids in Africa, is more than "just a football player" etc., have to wipe the egg of their face when he's playing in 2007.

I'm not saying Jake's a bad guy - he might have some lofty goals for the future, but he's been made out to be some cross between Gandhi and David Carradine's character in Kung Fu in some quarters.
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