Israel attacks Gaza-bound aid flotilla in international waters; 70+ kill/injured

[mjs020294]

Why is the blockade wrong? We ran a blockade of Saddam for years because his government was awful and nasty and there's no sane person gonna argue that Hamas is anything less than as nasty.

Israel limit the movement of essential items.   There was NEVER a blockade on food and medical supplies placed on Iraq.  Seeing as you want to compare the two WHY is it ok for Israel to ignore more UN resolutions than any country in history yet we invade Iraq using none compliance of UN resolutions? 

[dalbuc]

Israel limit the movement of essential items.   There was NEVER a blockade on food and medical supplies placed on Iraq.  Seeing as you want to compare the two WHY is it ok for Israel to ignore more UN resolutions than any country in history yet we invade Iraq using none compliance of UN resolutions? 

I'm wildly unconcerned with the UN and the nasty little 3rd world government that largely run it.  You should, again, find it odd that there have been more resolutions condeming Israel than any other government and when you ponder all the nasty awful governments since 1948 the Israelis don't even rate.

As for the blockade,  the Israelis allow in the necessities - food, fuel and medcine. The bigger problem is that Gaza has no functioning economy, even before the blockade, because the combo platter of Hamas and the PLO pretty much eliminated economic activity so that almost everyone needs these things.


BTW, Hamas are such scumbags that Egypt is also blockading them but I'm guessing there's not near as much pissing and moaning about that.................hmmm, wonder why.

[spartan]

Here is the original boarding:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d3b_1275323514

Edit n/m this is included in the YT video.

Nothing like unprovoked murder, PLAIN and SIMPLE!

One can question the judgement to board in International waters, but to paint this as some kind of unsolicited slaughter is well ... I guess you believe what you want to believe.

[John Galt?]

Let's review a little history

April 9, 1948: Menachem Begin leads Irgun paramilitary group in the slaughter of ~480 mostly unarmed men women and children at Deir Yassin.

1948: during the Israeli fight for independence (from Britain of course) Israeli forces committed 24 separate massacres of unarmed villagers or surrendered POWs.

July 12, 1948: IDF forces using tanks, APCs, and machine gun toting jeeps forced between 50,000-70,000 Palestinians from their homes in Lydda and Ramla. They were forced to leave all possessions behind and march (men, women, children and elderly) over 10 miles in 95^oF heat. This became known as the  Lydda death march which caused 355 deaths.

September 1955: Israel launches a preemptive air strike on Syria which is later condemned by the UN (resolution 111)

1962: Israel condemned for "flagrantly defying UN resolutions" in UN res. 171

October 28, 1956: Israel violates its treaty with Egypt and seizes the Sinai peninsula. They withdrew only after US and Soviet pressure.

June 5, 1967: Israel launches what it calls a "preemptive strike" against Egyptian forces in what becomes the 6 day war. Israel seizes the entire Sinai, the West Bank, the Golan Heights, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem. Only the Sinai was ever returned to its rightful owners.

November 10, 1975: the UN declares that Zionism is a form of racism in UN resolution 3379.

June 8 1967: IDF air and sea forces repeatedly attacked the USS Liberty, a US surveillance ship, in international waters. Not only was the ship clearly flying a US flag, but during the attack ship personnel changed the flag for a much larger one and still the attack continued. Several US sailors were strafed with machine gun fire from IDF torpedo boats while helpless in the water.

1937: During the Yom Kippur war,75,000 Egyptian soldiers though to have surrendered, somehow "disappear".
 
1981: Israel amends its Citizenship by residence law, which was intended to give full citizenship to non-Jewish denizens of the British Mandate of Palestine (Arabs, Druze, Bedouins, Christians, etc.). Under the amendment, non-Jewish citizens were granted a modified citizenship with greatly reduced rights.

1992: the Human Dignity and Liberty Law is passed. It declares basic human rights in Israel are based on the recognition of the value of man, the sanctity of his life and the fact that he is free. Defines human freedom as right to leave and enter the country, privacy (including speech, writings, and notes), intimacy, and protection from unlawful searches of one's person or property. This law includes instruction regarding its own permanence and protection from changes by means of emergency regulations. Palestinians are specifically exempted from this law.


In 1999, the Supreme Court of Israel ruled that Jews or the descendants of Jews that actively practice a religion other than Judaism would not be allowed to immigrate to Israel as they would no longer be considered Jews under the provisions of the Law of Return.  

2002: Israel orders all Palestinians whose land lies along the path of their Security Wall to give up said land for compensation to be determined by Israel (no appeal allowed)

2004 Israel cuts off access to water for thousands of Palestinians with its Security Wall construction.

then it just gets worse...

[olafberserker]

I believe these kind of pissing matches are reserved for the insider board ......

[ufojoe]

Interesting article on the details of the blockade...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i9xMQeXMiJB1691P4ttjJBiib6UwD9FVPS5G1

Excerpt:

Military bureaucrats enforcing Israel's blockade of Gaza allow frozen salmon filet, facial scrub and low-fat yogurt into the Hamas-ruled territory. Cilantro and instant coffee are another matter - they are banned as luxury items.

Over the past three years, Israel has determined down to the tiniest detail what gets into the Gaza Strip and to its population of 1.5 million, using secret guidelines to differentiate between humanitarian necessities and nonessential luxuries in its blockade meant to squeeze the Islamic militant group Hamas.

The results are often baffling.

[John Galt?]

Wow! I guess I missed the anti-semetic ranting. I'm having a hard time finding it, would someone please help me out? Would you mind defining antisemitism for me Dalbuc. Do you think being anti-semetic means that you disagree with Israel's policy making?

If you missed it then you don't read very hard when you see all the "zionist" this that and the other nonsense up above.

In the end, there's two sides in this conflict. Israel and Hamas. Hamas are know Islamic nutjobs who want a totalitarian state - this is basically the people who love Iran. Then there's Israel who is really the only functioning democracy in the region. Seriously, there's only one reason people are as worked up about Israel given the relative merits of the two sides and anti-Semitism is at the root of most of it. Deny it, lie about it, do whatever makes you feel better but if you hate Israel then by your measure we are 100x worse than they are so start rolling out the horrible comments about the USA.

I believe I am being entirely misquoted here....no I'm sure of it.

[ufojoe]

Why did Israel so underestimate some of the folks in that flotilla and put their IDF soldiers in such a bad position? Were they hoping for a reason to attack?

This Jerusalem Post Op/Ed looks at the first question...

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177059

But so much for the arenas in which Israel is routinely inept. What was so worrying about Monday’s performance was the military misjudgment and misassessment – and the potential impact on Israel’s deterrent capability of the failure to efficiently overwhelm the forces arrayed against it on what amounted to an enemy vessel.

Israel is concerned with eminently good reason about the smuggling of weaponry into Hamas-controlled Gaza. It may have felt it had no choice but to intercept a flotilla carrying it knew not what to the Hamas terror state. Why did it not anticipate that the activists and supporters of “a violent, extremist organization that supports terrorism� would act precisely according to type?

[dbucfan]

Let's review a little history

April 9, 1948: Menachem Begin leads Irgun paramilitary group in the slaughter of ~480 mostly unarmed men women and children at Deir Yassin.

1948: during the Israeli fight for independence (from Britain of course) Israeli forces committed 24 separate massacres of unarmed villagers or surrendered POWs.

July 12, 1948: IDF forces using tanks, APCs, and machine gun toting jeeps forced between 50,000-70,000 Palestinians from their homes in Lydda and Ramla. They were forced to leave all possessions behind and march (men, women, children and elderly) over 10 miles in 95^oF heat. This became known as the  Lydda death march which caused 355 deaths.

September 1955: Israel launches a preemptive air strike on Syria which is later condemned by the UN (resolution 111)

1962: Israel condemned for "flagrantly defying UN resolutions" in UN res. 171

October 28, 1956: Israel violates its treaty with Egypt and seizes the Sinai peninsula. They withdrew only after US and Soviet pressure.

June 5, 1967: Israel launches what it calls a "preemptive strike" against Egyptian forces in what becomes the 6 day war. Israel seizes the entire Sinai, the West Bank, the Golan Heights, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem. Only the Sinai was ever returned to its rightful owners.

November 10, 1975: the UN declares that Zionism is a form of racism in UN resolution 3379.

June 8 1967: IDF air and sea forces repeatedly attacked the USS Liberty, a US surveillance ship, in international waters. Not only was the ship clearly flying a US flag, but during the attack ship personnel changed the flag for a much larger one and still the attack continued. Several US sailors were strafed with machine gun fire from IDF torpedo boats while helpless in the water.

1937: During the Yom Kippur war,75,000 Egyptian soldiers though to have surrendered, somehow "disappear".
 
1981: Israel amends its Citizenship by residence law, which was intended to give full citizenship to non-Jewish denizens of the British Mandate of Palestine (Arabs, Druze, Bedouins, Christians, etc.). Under the amendment, non-Jewish citizens were granted a modified citizenship with greatly reduced rights.

1992: the Human Dignity and Liberty Law is passed. It declares basic human rights in Israel are based on the recognition of the value of man, the sanctity of his life and the fact that he is free. Defines human freedom as right to leave and enter the country, privacy (including speech, writings, and notes), intimacy, and protection from unlawful searches of one's person or property. This law includes instruction regarding its own permanence and protection from changes by means of emergency regulations. Palestinians are specifically exempted from this law.


In 1999, the Supreme Court of Israel ruled that Jews or the descendants of Jews that actively practice a religion other than Judaism would not be allowed to immigrate to Israel as they would no longer be considered Jews under the provisions of the Law of Return.  

2002: Israel orders all Palestinians whose land lies along the path of their Security Wall to give up said land for compensation to be determined by Israel (no appeal allowed)

2004 Israel cuts off access to water for thousands of Palestinians with its Security Wall construction.

then it just gets worse...

I don't think it would serve any good to balance that with similar issues of Arab actions toward the Jewish state.  Needless to say - both are beyond excuse -

[Boid Fink]

I believe these kind of pissing matches are reserved for the insider board ......

OMG!  CLAssic!

Smiling away right now!  That right there was hilarious!

[bradentonian]

I believe these kind of pissing matches are reserved for the insider board ......

OMG!  CLAssic!

Smiling away right now!  That right there was hilarious!

I agree; well-played

[John Galt?]

I don't think it would serve any good to balance that with similar issues of Arab actions toward the Jewish state.  Needless to say - both are beyond excuse -

No denying here that the other side has been equally reprehensible, but that has gotten plenty of media coverage. And no, I don't buy into some sort of Jewish media conspiracy. But I do believe that human nature is to prefer those that are more like you so the very western, suit wearing, often English speaking Israelis just get a little better media treatment than those evil sheet wearing Taqiyah heads that dress and talk and act sooo different.

[JavaBuc]

I don't think it would serve any good to balance that with similar issues of Arab actions toward the Jewish state.  Needless to say - both are beyond excuse -

No denying here that the other side has been equally reprehensible, but that has gotten plenty of media coverage. And no, I don't buy into some sort of Jewish media conspiracy. But I do believe that human nature is to prefer those that are more like you so the very western, suit wearing, often English speaking Israelis just get a little better media treatment than those evil sheet wearing Taqiyah heads that dress and talk and act sooo different.

The media here in Indonesia is just the opposite.   Israel is the hated devil and the media portrays it as such on a daily basis.    I think it's the same in every islamic country.   

[dalbuc]

Let's review a little history

April 9, 1948: Menachem Begin leads Irgun paramilitary group in the slaughter of ~480 mostly unarmed men women and children at Deir Yassin.

1948: during the Israeli fight for independence (from Britain of course) Israeli forces committed 24 separate massacres of unarmed villagers or surrendered POWs.

July 12, 1948: IDF forces using tanks, APCs, and machine gun toting jeeps forced between 50,000-70,000 Palestinians from their homes in Lydda and Ramla. They were forced to leave all possessions behind and march (men, women, children and elderly) over 10 miles in 95^oF heat. This became known as the  Lydda death march which caused 355 deaths.

September 1955: Israel launches a preemptive air strike on Syria which is later condemned by the UN (resolution 111)

1962: Israel condemned for "flagrantly defying UN resolutions" in UN res. 171

October 28, 1956: Israel violates its treaty with Egypt and seizes the Sinai peninsula. They withdrew only after US and Soviet pressure.

June 5, 1967: Israel launches what it calls a "preemptive strike" against Egyptian forces in what becomes the 6 day war. Israel seizes the entire Sinai, the West Bank, the Golan Heights, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem. Only the Sinai was ever returned to its rightful owners.

November 10, 1975: the UN declares that Zionism is a form of racism in UN resolution 3379.

June 8 1967: IDF air and sea forces repeatedly attacked the USS Liberty, a US surveillance ship, in international waters. Not only was the ship clearly flying a US flag, but during the attack ship personnel changed the flag for a much larger one and still the attack continued. Several US sailors were strafed with machine gun fire from IDF torpedo boats while helpless in the water.

1937: During the Yom Kippur war,75,000 Egyptian soldiers though to have surrendered, somehow "disappear".
 
1981: Israel amends its Citizenship by residence law, which was intended to give full citizenship to non-Jewish denizens of the British Mandate of Palestine (Arabs, Druze, Bedouins, Christians, etc.). Under the amendment, non-Jewish citizens were granted a modified citizenship with greatly reduced rights.

1992: the Human Dignity and Liberty Law is passed. It declares basic human rights in Israel are based on the recognition of the value of man, the sanctity of his life and the fact that he is free. Defines human freedom as right to leave and enter the country, privacy (including speech, writings, and notes), intimacy, and protection from unlawful searches of one's person or property. This law includes instruction regarding its own permanence and protection from changes by means of emergency regulations. Palestinians are specifically exempted from this law.


In 1999, the Supreme Court of Israel ruled that Jews or the descendants of Jews that actively practice a religion other than Judaism would not be allowed to immigrate to Israel as they would no longer be considered Jews under the provisions of the Law of Return.  

2002: Israel orders all Palestinians whose land lies along the path of their Security Wall to give up said land for compensation to be determined by Israel (no appeal allowed)

2004 Israel cuts off access to water for thousands of Palestinians with its Security Wall construction.

then it just gets worse...

You history stinks:

No one of any serious nature thinks Deir Yassin was more than 240 dead. The  best figures from modern scholars are @ 120 dead including combatants. That should tell you right off the bat.

1955 Syria was shelling Israel and Israel bombed their artillery batteries.

1956 Wow, this isn't even obscure history, Egypt closed off several key waterways to Israel in violation of several major treaties. Also of note, Egypt was training terrorists in the Gaza strip (ahhh a long and glorious history).

1967 also isn't obscure history. The Arab states mobilized for war on Israel's borders (this alone is a causus belli in international law). On May 16 the UN peacekeepers were told to leave the Sinai by Egypt and Egypt again closed down the Straits of Tiran.  A few weeks later The Egyptian-Syria Alliance got upgraded with the addition of the Jordanians and Egypt began sending forces to Jordan after that. You also had numerous non-contiguous states (Yemen, Iraq and others) mobilize.

The notion that you "owe" the defeated folks their territory back after a war is new information to, well, almost every border in the world. Again, the notion here shows an epic level of bias.

1967 the Liberty attacks were investigated by the US and mistaken identity was the verdict. The Israeli torpedo boats were actually shot at by the Liberty in the aftermath of the airstrikes and the records of the attacks have the pilots failing to properly ID the ship which is a highly common event in aerial attacks on shipping.

1973 Yom Kippur the "vanishing" 75,00 Egyptians is total hogwash. Egyptian 3rd Army was cut off by Israel during the war, and it would be the only body that could be close to 75,000 but it didn't vanish and returned home.

1981 This I had to look up. I can find zippo for 1981 other than the Golan Heights Law that extended citizenship to the inhabitants of the Golan Heights. The only "right" Muslim arabs don't have is Israel is the right to be conscripted (well Druze Arabs do for example) but they can join the IDF on a voluntary basis. Arab political parties have been banned for rejecting the right of Israel to exist but the Supreme Court has overturned all those bans.

Time to leave for work but suffice it to say your source sucks (which website did you pull this from I wonder) and most of your history is false or so grossly slanted one, again, has to wonder about the motivations of those who created your timeline.

[bucsense]

Lots of action later this summer between Israel and Hezbollah.....

The entire region is a crap hole........hate groups fighting for years over an alleged holy land.........

Considering current U.S. military technology, I don't see the strategic alliance with Israel......

We should talk tho'........check our past.