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#30 : July 31, 2010, 11:29:36 AM

This seems pretty cut and dry to me. Augusta State University is a Government institution, hence the name "state". And every interpretation of the 1st Amendment clearly states Govt. institutions can not dictate, discriminate, favor, or prohibit anything based on religious views. To threaten her because of her religious views is a clear violation of Amendment 1 and of separation of Church and State.

If the School is forcing hr to take part in a remediation program primarily because of her religious beliefs, then that is a clear cut case of religious discrimination.

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#31 : July 31, 2010, 02:56:00 PM

This seems pretty cut and dry to me. Augusta State University is a Government institution, hence the name "state". And every interpretation of the 1st Amendment clearly states Govt. institutions can not dictate, discriminate, favor, or prohibit anything based on religious views. To threaten her because of her religious views is a clear violation of Amendment 1 and of separation of Church and State.

If the School is forcing hr to take part in a remediation program primarily because of her religious beliefs, then that is a clear cut case of religious discrimination.

This is a bit of a sticky wicket .... While I don't agree at all with them trying to change her religious beliefs, they have a responsibility when issuing that degree. They're saying she is ready, at the highest level, to counsel people ... ALL people and obviously this religious bigot isn't.

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#32 : July 31, 2010, 03:51:41 PM

This seems pretty cut and dry to me. Augusta State University is a Government institution, hence the name "state". And every interpretation of the 1st Amendment clearly states Govt. institutions can not dictate, discriminate, favor, or prohibit anything based on religious views. To threaten her because of her religious views is a clear violation of Amendment 1 and of separation of Church and State.

If the School is forcing hr to take part in a remediation program primarily because of her religious beliefs, then that is a clear cut case of religious discrimination.

This is a bit of a sticky wicket .... While I don't agree at all with them trying to change her religious beliefs, they have a responsibility when issuing that degree. They're saying she is ready, at the highest level, to counsel people ... ALL people and obviously this religious bigot isn't.

I agree that at a public university this is unconstitutional, BUT, when it comes to the health and well-being of others I feel it is different.

Hypothetical: A Jewish person goes to college and decides to major in Catholic Studies (why, we don't know). They pass everything with flying colors. The final is one question: fill in the blank "The messiah was _______" Would it be right to fail them because of their beliefs?



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#33 : July 31, 2010, 04:01:49 PM

They're saying she is ready, at the highest level, to counsel people ...

No they're not. This is Augusta State, not Harvard. They are saying she has learned all the required material of a mid-level public college in Georgia and that she is ready to apply for a job. And that job could be at a private religious-affiliated school, which would be a good fit.

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#34 : July 31, 2010, 06:08:26 PM

This seems pretty cut and dry to me. Augusta State University is a Government institution, hence the name "state". And every interpretation of the 1st Amendment clearly states Govt. institutions can not dictate, discriminate, favor, or prohibit anything based on religious views. To threaten her because of her religious views is a clear violation of Amendment 1 and of separation of Church and State.

If the School is forcing hr to take part in a remediation program primarily because of her religious beliefs, then that is a clear cut case of religious discrimination.

Would it more acceptable for them to censure her for her discriminatory beliefs if they weren't based on religion?



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#35 : July 31, 2010, 07:07:53 PM

This seems pretty cut and dry to me. Augusta State University is a Government institution, hence the name "state". And every interpretation of the 1st Amendment clearly states Govt. institutions can not dictate, discriminate, favor, or prohibit anything based on religious views. To threaten her because of her religious views is a clear violation of Amendment 1 and of separation of Church and State.

If the School is forcing hr to take part in a remediation program primarily because of her religious beliefs, then that is a clear cut case of religious discrimination.

Would it more acceptable for them to censure her for her discriminatory beliefs if they weren't based on religion?


Legally yes. But for me personally, censorship is the greater evil. People have a right to believe stupid things.

Also, if they censure her for her beliefs, then others with the same beliefs will just hide their beliefs and conceal (temporarily anyway) their opinions. I'd rather the stupidity was open and plain for all to see.

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#36 : July 31, 2010, 09:46:35 PM

Well, I would agree with you on people's right to hold idiotic beliefs and even to publicly state those beliefs. However, I find something inherently wrong with this woman receiving protection for her discriminatory views that she wouldn't receive if they were just garden-variety bigotry instead of being based on religion.

Should she receive exemption from adherence to a code of conduct that others must follow, simply because she goes to church?

The Counselor Education Program is grounded in the core principles of the American Counseling Association and the American School Counselor Association, which defines the roles and responsibilities of professional counselors in its code of ethics," the statement read. "The code is included in the curriculum of the counseling education program, which states that counselors in training have the same responsibility as professional counselors to understand and follow the ACA Code of Ethics."

The Code of Ethics prohibits counselors from discriminating based on a number of factors, including gender identity and sexual orientation. "Counselors do not discriminate against clients, students, employees, supervisees, or research participants in a manner that has a negative impact on these persons," the code says.


The negative impact on the lives of others is the key point here. Would it be responsible to place this woman in a position to have such an impact, when it would not be considered responsible to do so if she didn't have religion to excuse her views?

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#37 : July 31, 2010, 10:19:30 PM

Nice reach.  They are making a determination based upon their beliefs to discriminate against her as well.  So one is left to suppose no one can fit the requirements?  Nutty, huh?!

Main Entry: dis·crim·i·na·tion
Pronunciation: dis-ˌkri-mə-ˈnā-shən
Function: noun
Date: 1648
1 a : the act of discriminating b : the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded to differently
2 : the quality or power of finely distinguishing
3 a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment <racial discrimination>
synonyms see discernment

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#38 : July 31, 2010, 10:25:56 PM

Nice reach.  They are making a determination based upon their beliefs to discriminate against her as well. 

Incorrect. They are making a determination based upon current legal precedent. Beliefs are personal, transient, and very arbitrary. The legal system is a stable, long-term structure, the support of which is advantageous to and agreed upon by the majority. Big difference.

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#39 : July 31, 2010, 10:43:44 PM


The negative impact on the lives of others is the key point here. Would it be responsible to place this woman in a position to have such an impact, when it would not be considered responsible to do so if she didn't have religion to excuse her views?


Immaterial. Making a creationist a biology teacher is criminal but you shouldn't stop them from being able to earn a biology degree. A holocaust denier can get a PhD in history despite the AHA's position that the Holocaust is a historical fact but shouldn't get hired to teach the subject.  A moron who think acupuncture is real medicine can earn an MD but I'd never go to them as my doctor. There might be an issue with the programs that allow these, or the subject of the article, to gain degrees despite their knuckleheaded thoughts but all a college can do is evaluate your fitness based on the assignments you have been given not your personal beliefs.

If the course work doesn't stop here from getting her degree despite her personal beliefs then that's it, end of story. Hell, using their logic any number of personal beliefs could fall afoul of that "negative impact" creedo.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.
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#40 : July 31, 2010, 10:48:15 PM

Nice reach.  They are making a determination based upon their beliefs to discriminate against her as well.  

Incorrect. They are making a determination based upon current legal precedent. Beliefs are personal, transient, and very arbitrary. The legal system is a stable, long-term structure, the support of which is advantageous to and agreed upon by the majority. Big difference.

Actually I think you might be wrong also?...OBD

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/legal+system
   legal system - a system for interpreting and enforcing the laws
system - a procedure or process for obtaining an objective; "they had to devise a system that did not depend on cooperation"


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#41 : July 31, 2010, 10:51:17 PM


The negative impact on the lives of others is the key point here. Would it be responsible to place this woman in a position to have such an impact, when it would not be considered responsible to do so if she didn't have religion to excuse her views?


Immaterial. Making a creationist a biology teacher is criminal but you shouldn't stop them from being able to earn a biology degree. A holocaust denier can get a PhD in history despite the AHA's position that the Holocaust is a historical fact but shouldn't get hired to teach the subject.  A moron who think acupuncture is real medicine can earn an MD but I'd never go to them as my doctor. There might be an issue with the programs that allow these, or the subject of the article, to gain degrees despite their knuckleheaded thoughts but all a college can do is evaluate your fitness based on the assignments you have been given not your personal beliefs.

If the course work doesn't stop here from getting her degree despite her personal beliefs then that's it, end of story. Hell, using their logic any number of personal beliefs could fall afoul of that "negative impact" creedo.
Again this is why they give a free first hour to see if they can accomplish anything by the parameters both parties establish...The University is way out of bounds on this one...OBD


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#42 : July 31, 2010, 11:39:14 PM


Are most counselors even directly paid by the counseled? Augusta State declares its goal for the Counselor Education program as "prepare students for professional careers as either school guidance counselors or counselors in community mental health or private practice settings." I'm not sure where you're coming up with the free hour excuse, but it doesn't even apply to many counselors, and I have doubts that it is as widespread in private practice as you would have us believe.

The university has released a statement clarifying its position: "The counseling profession requires its practitioners to recognize that people set and adhere to their own moral compass. The professional counselor's job is to help clients clarify their current feelings and behaviors and to help them reach the goals that they have determined for themselves, not to dictate what those goals should be, what morals they should possess, or what values they should adopt."
http://www.wrdw.com/politics/headlines/99347524.html

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#43 : July 31, 2010, 11:46:51 PM

Easy: Give her a test, she must answer every question correctly. Have one question be: A homosexual person comes for counseling due to discrimination or prejudice or someone is rejecting them because they are indeed gay. The answer should be how the counselor goes about remedying this. If it is not an answer that aids the person than she cannot receive her degree.

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#44 : July 31, 2010, 11:58:41 PM

The university has released a statement clarifying its position: "The counseling profession requires its practitioners to recognize that people set and adhere to their own moral compass. The professional counselor's job is to help clients clarify their current feelings and behaviors and to help them reach the goals that they have determined for themselves, not to dictate what those goals should be, what morals they should possess, or what values they should adopt."
http://www.wrdw.com/politics/headlines/99347524.html


Again, that's all sweet and nice but 100% crap. Using that logic anyone with "extreme" viewpoints, almost any viewpoints, should get popped. I'm guessing the percentage of nut job left-wing feminists is much higher in the counseling profession than in the real world. Anyone think they're not gonna impose their views and values into a real-world situation as much as the nutball Xian?

Sorry, this is why the degree is the degree and everything else is either patient-counselor or else employer-employee relations.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.
If you think Manziel is the best QB in this draft I can safely assume you are an idiot and will treat you as such.
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