The Cloward and Piven Plan

[PewterGoon]

Yup I'm struggling, you guys win.  Have fun worrying about these things and making yourselves miserable.  There isn't a thing I could say to convince you either way, so it doesn't matter.

[Biggs3535]

Yup I'm struggling, you guys win.  Have fun worrying about these things and making yourselves miserable.  There isn't a thing I could say to convince you either way, so it doesn't matter.

Cool.  You don't need to convince anyone of anything, except that you have something of substance to offer to refute that Cloward and Piven's plan appears to be in the process of being executed.

[Col. Klink]

It is a neat read - identifying individuals in the same level of poverty who see the positives and seize the opportunity to work for a better future. Others chose not to, to their own detriment.

LOL .... It's funny how those with differing viewpoints read the same exact thing and get the opposite interpretation .... I read that the culture/cycle of poverty trapped people there, unable to break the cycle through things basically out of their control. Maybe Illuminator can be the tie breaker since he introduced it... 

[Obamessiah]

I said start a new thread; I'm fascinated watching goon charge forward with the standard he has picked up.

Anyway, I would disagree with dbuc's use of the term "chose," as what is really trapping a certain set of people in poverty is the subconscious habits that they endlessly repeat, and these tend to be passed down from generation to generation. Breaking these mental cycles would require a functional knowledge of NLP, but that's yet a third subject.

[kevabuc]

You guys are nuts,

Essentially the same health care bill that was created by the Republicans in the 90s that is suddenly horrible "ObamaCare" now.

You guys are nuts.

You mean those plans created as an alternative to Hillerycare by such staunch conservatives ( satire font on ) as Rockefeller, Dole and Chaffee that all died because they couldn't ever figure out how to finance them, you know, the horrible portion of Obamacare that was horrible then as well as now.

And I just love any good piece of oratory that begins with, "you guys are nuts". I think it should have been the opening line of the Declaration of Indepence. " When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with guys that are nuts..."

[Skull and Bones]

I said start a new thread; I'm fascinated watching goon charge forward with the standard he has picked up.

Anyway, I would disagree with dbuc's use of the term "chose," as what is really trapping a certain set of people in poverty is the subconscious habits that they endlessly repeat, and these tend to be passed down from generation to generation. Breaking these mental cycles would require a functional knowledge of NLP, but that's yet a third subject.

Well as luck would have it Obama is an expert at NLP.  I'm sure he would love to get all those people off govt. dependency.

[dbucfan]

It is a neat read - identifying individuals in the same level of poverty who see the positives and seize the opportunity to work for a better future. Others chose not to, to their own detriment.

LOL .... It's funny how those with differing viewpoints read the same exact thing and get the opposite interpretation .... I read that the culture/cycle of poverty trapped people there, unable to break the cycle through things basically out of their control. Maybe Illuminator can be the tie breaker since he introduced it... 

Trapped - when folks within such situations are found breaking such cycles, when immigrants arrive with nothing and  leap past on their own.  Choose is likely not the perfect word - but is plenty close enough. 

[Col. Klink]

It is a neat read - identifying individuals in the same level of poverty who see the positives and seize the opportunity to work for a better future. Others chose not to, to their own detriment.

LOL .... It's funny how those with differing viewpoints read the same exact thing and get the opposite interpretation .... I read that the culture/cycle of poverty trapped people there, unable to break the cycle through things basically out of their control. Maybe Illuminator can be the tie breaker since he introduced it...�

Trapped - when folks within such situations are found breaking such cycles, when immigrants arrive with nothing and leap past on their own. Choose is likely not the perfect word - but is plenty close enough.

You need to read those articles a little closer and if you still think the majority "choose" poverty start a new thread as Ill suggested ... Apparently this one is for goon watching. 

[dbucfan]

I have recall ever having interest in what Illuminator offers, no offense but to me if I respond to his pov I am passing time. 

As for the meaningful portion of our discussion - I know too many folks who worked from nothing to successful lives - folks from various backgrounds - from around several portions of the country - to accept the trapped explanation.  From the current generation of folks trying to move their lives forward, to include the past 2 and 1/2 I am personally familiar with.  The positive examples abound - including poor whites, blacks and orientals, and any other group one wishes to identify - as does the number who give up on themselves - including folks from all the same backgrounds. 

Do some folks require help? - you bet, disabled - mentally or physically, infirmmed, and those who are older all deserve the attention of those who are still productive and able to help them.  Col. - I lived it.. just so you know.

[Obamessiah]

I have recall ever having interest in what Illuminator offers,

Don't think I don't know what you're up to. You're insulting me in some foreign language, aren't you?

[dbucfan]

Nope

[Col. Klink]

As for the meaningful portion of our discussion - I know too many folks who worked from nothing to successful lives - folks from various backgrounds - from around several portions of the country - to accept the trapped explanation. From the current generation of folks trying to move their lives forward, to include the past 2 and 1/2 I am personally familiar with. The positive examples abound - including poor whites, blacks and orientals, and any other group one wishes to identify - as does the number who give up on themselves - including folks from all the same backgrounds.

As with most things in life, there are exceptions to every rule, at both ends of the spectrum. Doesn't stop these from being interesting reads ............. to some.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_poverty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_poverty

[Skull and Bones]

take a stroll down to south st. pete, a predominately black neighborhood,  and stop at all the convenience stores/markets/bodagas and see who owns them.  straight off the boat immigrants from the middle east and asia.  don't know what to make of it but it is an interesting observation.

[Skull and Bones]

also observe all the people from said neighborhood loitering out in front of those stores drinking and getting high and otherwise not being productive.  i suppose both of you could use that to support your arguments but I'd personally side with dbuc.

[alldaway]

Someone asked me to address this , so I will do this briefly even though everything should be dismissed based on the racist, stereotypical remarks about Puerto Rico, but that is my opinion:

-- Universal health care. The health care bill had very little to do with health care. � It had everything to do with unionizing millions of hospital and health care workers, as well as adding 15,000 to 20,000 new IRS agents (who will join government employee unions). Obama doesn't care that giving free health care to 30 million Americans will add trillions to the national debt. What he does care about is that it cements the dependence of those 30 million voters to Democrats and big government. Who but a socialist revolutionary would pass this reckless spending bill in the middle of a depression?

The current incarnation of Obama care is really Romney Care, but more accurately what the Republicans have been proposing for the last 20 years.  Now that a Democrat delivers their agenda, they are offended, and fight vigorously to distance themselves from it because it makes them look bad as a party.  Liberals do not like the current set up of Obama care, and are more angry about it than conservatives. Obama made the choice of putting forth a compromise, which both sides are not happy about.  For those pragmatists that argue that this is a step in the right direction they may prove to be right, but also could be wrong.  But without a doubt the foundation of Obama care is based on a Republican blue print.

-- Cap and trade. Like health care legislation having nothing to do with health care, cap and trade has nothing to do with global warming. It has everything to do with redistribution of income, government control of the economy and a criminal payoff to Obama's biggest contributors. Those powerful and wealthy unions and contributors (like GE, which owns NBC, MSNBC and CNBC) can then be counted on to support everything Obama wants. They will kickback hundreds of millions of dollars in contributions to Obama and the Democratic Party to keep them in power. The bonus is that all the new taxes on Americans with bigger cars, bigger homes and businesses helps Obama "spread the wealth around."

Too many people are uneducated about global warming, which is really more accurately called, global climate change.  Global climate change suggests that some portions of the globe experience warmer temperatures than normal while other parts of the globe become cooler than normal.  The temperature ranges become more unstable during global climate change periods because there is a change in the ratio of frozen ice to liquid water on the earth's sphere.  Because of the oceans of the world, and the property of water's high heat capacity, it keeps the temperature ranges on land fairly stable, and even more so in the water for life that lives there.  If the ice is being melted one would assume that the increase in water would lead to more stable temperatures, but that isn't the case because you have far more water involved in the hydrological cycle, and the loss of ice as a deflective shield against solar rays.  With increased solar rays there is an increase in UVA, and UVB, and there is a feedback effect with the solar rays entering the atmosphere interacting with the GHG trapped.  The freed up water in the hydrological cycle turns into a water vapor which is a significant, major GHG.  Everyone agrees that we are contributing to global climate change, but there is disagreement if humans are significant contributors, or not. 

Even assuming the process of global climate change is not human induced, Cap and Trade isn't only about reducing carbon emissions due to "global warming".  Carbon emissions have carcinogens as byproducts in many cases, which is beneficial for a living population to have reduced exposure to.   It could be argued that the United States heavily enforces current environmental laws and regulations, but there is always room for improvement IMVHO.  The value of land is still very important as of the year 2010, despite it diminishing since the Dark ages, but also arguably greater with the increased world population.  Turning a piece of land into a cesspool due to excessive carbon emissions doesn't make sense in the long run from a cost/benefit analysis because it takes far more money to restore a toxic land than to comply with cap and trade.   As for GE, they are also big players in supplying power if I recall correctly, so they would take a hit with Cap and Trade, and would not come out ahead.  Bigger cars, bigger homes, and suburbs are all wasteful in terms of energy usage, and land usage, and a poor use of resources.

-- Legalize 12 million illegal immigrants. Just giving these 12 million potential new citizens free health care alone could overwhelm the system and bankrupt America . But it adds 12 million reliable new Democrat voters who can be counted on to support big government. Add another few trillion dollars in welfare, aid to dependent children, food stamps, free medical, education, tax credits for the poor, and eventually Social Security.

Illegals currently heavily use the American health care system but most Americans don't realize it.  More to the point, as bluntly as possible, why are Americans okay with illegals having access to health care, and against American citizens having a fair shot at health care?  And this is also very stereotypical to assume illegals would all vote for a Democrat.  When the previous administration was tossing out similar, or same ideas, no one believed that illegals would support the previous administration blindly.  There is no additional cost if they become legal as that cost is currently being incurred as illegals, so again the information is misleading.  Children of illegals currently are able to obtain free lunches at school, and attend a public school, so the imaginary increase in cost is non existent.  It is already there and we are already coping with it, so the next step is to make them legal under certain conditions are met, but the step should be taken.

-- Stimulus and bailouts. Where did all that money go? It went to Democrat contributors, organizations (ACORN), and unions -- including billions of dollars to save or create jobs of government employees across the country. It went to save GM and Chrysler so that their employees could keep paying union dues. It went to AIG so that Goldman Sachs could be bailed out (after giving Obama almost $1 million in contributions). A staggering $125 billion went to teachers (thereby protecting their union dues). All those public employees will vote loyally Democrat to protect their bloated salaries and pensions that are bankrupting America . The country goes broke, future generations face a bleak future, but Obama, the Democrat Party, government, and the unions grow more powerful. The ends justify the means.

The majority of the money from the bail outs went to Wall Street, and the banks as unions aren't a powerful force on the North American continent like they are in Europe, and in fact are pushovers for those on Wall Street.

-- Raise taxes on small business owners, high-income earners, and job creators. Put the entire burden on only the top 20 percent of taxpayers, redistribute the income, punish success, and reward those who did nothing to deserve it (except vote for Obama). Reagan wanted to dramatically cut taxes in order to starve the government. Obama wants to dramatically raise taxes to starve his political opposition.

The top 20% haven't seen a significant burden since the 1930's in terms of taxes, and have had their contributions through taxes decline over a 75 year period meanwhile the middle class is shrinking.   Small business aren't allowed to compete because the corporations, and Wall Street have powerful lobbyists.  Success, and new ideas put forth by small business are punished because the major corporations are fearful of legit free market competition.  Job generators will not take gambles unless there is a demand, and given demand is driven by consumerism, the middle class can't spend as they have seen their spending power decline, and job generators unwilling to make new jobs for the middle class.

Add it up and you've got the perfect Marxist scheme -- all devised by my Columbia University college classmate Barack Obama using the Cloward and Piven Plan.

Having visited Communist countries, and lived in one that almost became one, there is nothing Marxist about these ideas.  Eisenhower, and FDR would be both backing all of these ideas along with a balanced budget.