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kevabuc

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#525 : August 27, 2010, 04:19:36 PM

That comment was in response to the one above it. I didn't quote it in my follow up.

Would you mind pointing out the section of the Constitution that deals with tastelessness and insensitivity? Your feelings do not constitute a valid reason for them not to build there.

 


Using this logic then, shouldn't all Hate crime legislation be unConstitutional.

`Sec. 249. Hate crime acts

`(a) In General-

`(1) OFFENSES INVOLVING ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED RACE, COLOR, RELIGION, OR NATIONAL ORIGIN

Perceived definition:

1. To obtain knowledge of through the senses; to receive impressions from by means of the bodily organs; to take cognizance of the existence, character, or identity of, by means of the senses; to see, hear, or feel; as, to perceive a distant ship; to perceive a discord. --Reid. [1913 Webster

When you take over the world you can change it. Until then, don't commit hate crimes.

So feelings constitute a valid reason for such legislation, is that what you are saying?

\"The budget should be balanced; the treasury should be refilled; public debt should be reduced; and the arrogance of public officials should be controlled.\" -Cicero. 106-43 B.C.

TheShadow

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#526 : August 27, 2010, 04:25:58 PM

That's what you're saying.

Quit beefing about the past and start hoping for the future

kevabuc

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#527 : August 27, 2010, 04:37:27 PM

That's what you're saying.

What a cop out, you ought to be in politics.

\"The budget should be balanced; the treasury should be refilled; public debt should be reduced; and the arrogance of public officials should be controlled.\" -Cicero. 106-43 B.C.

TheShadow

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#528 : August 27, 2010, 04:54:50 PM

Why in the world would I have to justify anything to you?

Quit beefing about the past and start hoping for the future

kevabuc

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#529 : August 27, 2010, 05:00:36 PM

Why in the world would I have to justify anything to you?

You don't, but in my opinion I don't think you can.

\"The budget should be balanced; the treasury should be refilled; public debt should be reduced; and the arrogance of public officials should be controlled.\" -Cicero. 106-43 B.C.

TheShadow

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#530 : August 27, 2010, 05:08:20 PM

You're right, I don't. You can have your opinion and I can have mine.

I'm still voting for Crist and apparently that furrows your brow.

Quit beefing about the past and start hoping for the future

dbucfan

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#531 : August 27, 2010, 06:31:03 PM

That comment was in response to the one above it. I didn't quote it in my follow up.

Would you mind pointing out the section of the Constitution that deals with tastelessness and insensitivity? Your feelings do not constitute a valid reason for them not to build there.
 

Depends on how much those who want to build the mosque can stand from the folks who don't want it built.  If they don't mind the other side pointing out how much they don't want the building there - break ground.  Should be fun to watch.

As for building, or trying to build, at that site I don't think it will happen.  I have been wrong before. 

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

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#532 : August 27, 2010, 08:16:26 PM

 [banghead] [banghead]
That comment was in response to the one above it. I didn't quote it in my follow up.

Would you mind pointing out the section of the Constitution that deals with tastelessness and insensitivity? Your feelings do not constitute a valid reason for them not to build there.


Course they do. They do not constitute a legal reason to prevent them from building it, but if the prime intent is to make friends and influence people as they, taking peoples feelings into consideration and not pissing them off would be a good start don't you think?

I doubt there's anything Muslims could do to make you, or others opposed to their new building, like them better.

Do you care whether you and others are pissing them off?

[banghead] [banghead] [banghead] [banghead] [banghead] [banghead]

TheShadow

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#533 : August 27, 2010, 08:29:17 PM

Thank you. Trying to have a discussion on this board makes me feel the same way.

Quit beefing about the past and start hoping for the future

dbucfan

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#534 : August 27, 2010, 08:33:40 PM

I have found sometimes trying to see the other side is helpful to the conversation.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

kevabuc

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#535 : August 30, 2010, 11:11:53 AM

You're right, I don't. You can have your opinion and I can have mine.

I'm still voting for Crist and apparently that furrows your brow.

The difference is that I can, and will, justify my opinions, while you refuse to because you know that by doing so it will set up an inconsistancy between two of your stated opinions. One concerning the Constitutional support of the mosque based upon "feelings" not being a basis for opposition and the other being your previously stated support for hate crime legislation in spite of verbage pertaining to feelings being included and allowed, therefore Constitutionally acceptable.

I can see why you admire Mr. Crist, he has this down to an artform.

This is what furrows my brow, the manner in which you treat the Constitution like one of those black 8 balls that you shake up until you get the answer you want, not who you are going to vote for.

\"The budget should be balanced; the treasury should be refilled; public debt should be reduced; and the arrogance of public officials should be controlled.\" -Cicero. 106-43 B.C.

TheShadow

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#536 : August 30, 2010, 05:06:20 PM

You're right, I don't. You can have your opinion and I can have mine.

I'm still voting for Crist and apparently that furrows your brow.

The difference is that I can, and will, justify my opinions, while you refuse to because you know that by doing so it will set up an inconsistancy between two of your stated opinions. One concerning the Constitutional support of the mosque based upon "feelings" not being a basis for opposition and the other being your previously stated support for hate crime legislation in spite of verbage pertaining to feelings being included and allowed, therefore Constitutionally acceptable.

I can see why you admire Mr. Crist, he has this down to an artform.

This is what furrows my brow, the manner in which you treat the Constitution like one of those black 8 balls that you shake up until you get the answer you want, not who you are going to vote for.



I do not admire Charlie Crist but I will vote for him anyway. Mostly because folks like you do not. A vote can be used for your guy or against the other guy. I've already stated the why's and wherefore's.

I know where you're going with the hate crimes thing but your mind numbingly slow way of getting there is like watching Byron Leftwich load up for a deep throw. I didn't bite on your pump fake Mr Windmill. I am very well aware of what I've said in the past.

I am a complicated person with sometimes conflicting opinions. Having two positions that are conflicting doesn't mean they're both wrong. It also doesn't mean they're right but they are opinions after all. There is also a difference between the Constitution and the way laws are applied and I think we all get that, right?

As to the contradiction, I leave you with the immortal words of Aldous Huxley:

"A child-like man is not a man whose development has been arrested; on the contrary, he is a man who has given himself a chance of continuing to develop long after most adults have muffled themselves in the co**CENSORED** of middle-aged habit and convention."

You figure out who is who.








Quit beefing about the past and start hoping for the future

Col. Klink

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#537 : August 30, 2010, 06:19:47 PM

Not sure how it got to Florida politics but to try and get back OT ... Here's a nice article the open-minded might find interesting.

Quote
NYC mosque debate will shape American Islam
           
By RACHEL ZOLL, AP Religion Writer Rachel Zoll, Ap Religion Writer – Mon Aug 30, 12:07 am ET
NEW YORK – Adnan Zulfiqar, a graduate student, former U.S. Senate aide and American-born son of Pakistani immigrants, will soon give the first khutbah, or sermon, of the fall semester at the University of Pennsylvania. His topic has presented itself in the daily headlines and blog posts over the disputed mosque near ground zero.

What else could he choose, he says, after a summer remembered not for its reasoned debate, but for epithets, smears, even violence?

As he writes, Zulfiqar frets over the potential fallout and what he and other Muslim leaders can do about it. Will young Muslims conclude they are second-class citizens in the U.S. now and always?

"They're already struggling to balance, `I'm American, I'm Muslim,' and their ethnic heritage. It's very disconcerting," said Zulfiqar, 32, who worked for former U.S. Sen. Max Cleland, a Georgia Democrat, and now serves Penn's campus ministry. "A controversy like this can make them radical or become more conservative in how they look at things or how they fit into the American picture."

Whatever the outcome, the uproar over a planned Islamic center near the World Trade Center site is shaping up as a signal event in the story of American Islam.

Strong voices have emerged from outside the Muslim community. New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg has been steadfast in his support for the project. Jon Stewart nightly mocks the bigotry that the protest unleashed.

"The sentiment, say, five years ago among many Muslims, especially among many young Muslims, was that, `We're in this all by ourselves,'" said Omer Mozaffar, a university lecturer in Chicago who leads Quran study groups as a buffer between young people and the extremist preachers on YouTube. `That has changed significantly. There have been a lot of people speaking out on behalf of Muslims."

Eboo Patel, an American Muslim leader and founder of Interfaith Youth Core, a Chicago nonprofit that promotes community service and religious pluralism, said Muslims are unfortunately experiencing what all immigrant groups endured in the U.S. before they were fully accepted as American. Brandeis University historian Jonathan D. Sarna has noted that Jews faced a similar backlash into the 1800s when they tried to build synagogues, which were once banned in New York.

Patel believes American Muslims are on the same difficult but inevitable path toward integration.

"I'm not saying this is going to be happy," Patel said. "But I'm extremely optimistic."

Yet, the overwhelming feeling is that the controversy has caused widespread damage that will linger for years.

American Muslim leaders say the furor has emboldened opposition groups to resist new mosques around the country, at a time when there aren't enough mosques or Islamic schools to serve the community.

Rhetoric from some politicians that lumps all Muslims with terrorists will depress the Muslim vote, analysts say.

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, a potential 2012 presidential candidate, said in opposing the Islamic center that, "America is experiencing an Islamist cultural-political offensive designed to undermine and destroy our civilization."

U.S. Muslims who have championed democracy and religious tolerance question what they've accomplished. If the "extremist" label can be hung on someone as apparently liberal as the imam at the center of the outcry, Feisal Abdul Rauf, then any Muslim could come under attack. Feisal supports women's rights, human rights and interfaith outreach.

"The joke is on moderate Muslims," said Muqtedar Khan, a University of Delaware political scientist and author of "American Muslims, Bridging Faith and Freedom." "What's the point if you're going to be treated the same way as a radical? If I get into trouble are they going to treat me like I'm a supporter of al-Qaeda?"

U.S. Muslims are themselves divided over the proposed mosque.

Feisal and his wife, Daisy Khan (no relation to Muqtedar Khan), want to build a 13-story, $100 million community center called Park51 two blocks from the World Trade Center site. It would be modeled on the YMCA or Jewish Community Center, with programming for the entire city, and would include a mosque.

Some Muslims felt from the start that the plan was misguided, given the wounds of the Sept. 11 attacks and widespread misunderstanding about Islam. Yet they felt compelled to defend the proposal when the discussion over religious freedom and cultural sensitivity turned ugly.

Days ago, a brick nearly smashed a window at the Madera Islamic Center in central California, where signs were left behind that read, "Wake up America, the enemy is here," and "No temple for the god of terrorism." This past week in New York, a Muslim cab driver had his face and throat slashed in a suspected hate crime.

The poisonous atmosphere comes at a still fragile time in the development of Muslim communal life.

Leaders have spent years trying to persuade Muslim immigrants to come out of their enclaves and fully embrace being American. The task became that much more difficult in the aftermath of 9/11. Many Muslims pulled back, convinced that if another terrorist attack occurs, the U.S. government will put them in internment camps, like the Japanese in World War II. Their American-born children, meanwhile, have felt rejected by their own country.

David Ramadan, a Muslim and vice chair of ethnic coalitions for Republican Party in Virginia, predicts that comments from political figures in both major parties will depress Muslim voting in years to come.

Ramadan and other Muslim Republicans have been pressing GOP leaders not to support a particular mosque, but to acknowledge that American Muslims have equal rights under the Constitution.

"Who wants to come into the fold of the Republican Party today, or even the fold of the Democratic Party?" Ramadan asked. "They just increased the number of independents in America

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_nyc_mosque_fallout

TheShadow

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#538 : August 30, 2010, 06:26:13 PM

Sorry about the "cross thread promotion".. ;)

Quit beefing about the past and start hoping for the future

dbucfan

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#539 : August 31, 2010, 05:49:41 PM

You're right, I don't. You can have your opinion and I can have mine.

I'm still voting for Crist and apparently that furrows your brow.

The difference is that I can, and will, justify my opinions, while you refuse to because you know that by doing so it will set up an inconsistancy between two of your stated opinions. One concerning the Constitutional support of the mosque based upon "feelings" not being a basis for opposition and the other being your previously stated support for hate crime legislation in spite of verbage pertaining to feelings being included and allowed, therefore Constitutionally acceptable.

I can see why you admire Mr. Crist, he has this down to an artform.

This is what furrows my brow, the manner in which you treat the Constitution like one of those black 8 balls that you shake up until you get the answer you want, not who you are going to vote for.



I do not admire Charlie Crist but I will vote for him anyway. Mostly because folks like you do not. A vote can be used for your guy or against the other guy. I've already stated the why's and wherefore's.

I know where you're going with the hate crimes thing but your mind numbingly slow way of getting there is like watching Byron Leftwich load up for a deep throw. I didn't bite on your pump fake Mr Windmill. I am very well aware of what I've said in the past.

I am a complicated person with sometimes conflicting opinions. Having two positions that are conflicting doesn't mean they're both wrong. It also doesn't mean they're right but they are opinions after all. There is also a difference between the Constitution and the way laws are applied and I think we all get that, right?

As to the contradiction, I leave you with the immortal words of Aldous Huxley:

"A child-like man is not a man whose development has been arrested; on the contrary, he is a man who has given himself a chance of continuing to develop long after most adults have muffled themselves in the co**CENSORED** of middle-aged habit and convention."

You figure out who is who.









This is not one of the times I was referencing.  Voting against has become popular, if not necessary on some occasions - Crist is not one of them. 

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant
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