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Skull and Bones

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#15 : September 01, 2010, 05:59:19 PM

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fi0fREiHRM4C&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=devil+worship+earliest+of+religions&source=bl&ots=0Antwlk6lT&sig=cTEibUZoiuorZHsikHmdVwsUtUs&hl=en&ei=08t-TK7zE8H38AazyYHUAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false


Thomas

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#16 : September 01, 2010, 06:05:00 PM

serious devil worshipers do not actually believe in the Christian view regards to good and evil. They think of Satan as a revealer of secrets when actually he is just a good story teller. That is why the occult has so many parallels with Bible stories. It is a lie. The devil is a liar.

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#17 : September 01, 2010, 07:32:08 PM


Actually, "serious devil worshipers," such as those in The Church of Satan, know that the devil is an imaginary figure invented by the church. Their philosophy is that one must take responsibility for their own life. Thoughts like that need to be stamped out!

Our founding fathers built this country on Christian beliefs and values.

You still believe in the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus, don't you?

Leave it to someone like you and your buddy Shadow to seriously believe the guy in the devil mask should be taken for an actual religion? 

Of course not. Actual religions have to include lunacy like talking snakes, people living inside of whales, and voices from the sky that tell you to slaughter all your neighbors but keep the virgins for yourself. That's an "actual" religion.

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#18 : September 01, 2010, 07:47:08 PM

Our founding fathers built this country on Christian beliefs and values.

Then why the blatant and crystal clear "separation between the two?


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Biggs3535

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#19 : September 01, 2010, 08:00:26 PM

Our founding fathers built this country on Christian beliefs and values.

Then why the blatant and crystal clear "separation between the two?

Which founding document is "separation of Church and State" from?


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#20 : September 01, 2010, 08:09:54 PM

Our founding fathers built this country on Christian beliefs and values.

Then why the blatant and crystal clear "separation between the two?

Which founding document is "separation of Church and State" from?

Which Christian value is it that espouses slaughtering the natives and stealing their land?

Biggs3535

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#21 : September 01, 2010, 08:15:37 PM

Our founding fathers built this country on Christian beliefs and values.

Then why the blatant and crystal clear "separation between the two?

Which founding document is "separation of Church and State" from?

Which Christian value is it that espouses slaughtering the natives and stealing their land?


What does that have to do with the subject (separation of church and state) at hand? 


lyronmewis

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#22 : September 01, 2010, 08:25:27 PM

Our founding fathers built this country on Christian beliefs and values.

Then why the blatant and crystal clear "separation between the two?

Which founding document is "separation of Church and State" from?

Before this spirals down into a pedantic squabble and quote mining, tell me what parts of the Bible's morality (and what sect the interpretation is inspired from) that is in the constitution. The first amendment itself directly contradicts a lot of the Bible. I don't see anything uniquely Christian inspired in any US government document, then or now.

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#23 : September 01, 2010, 08:31:22 PM

Our founding fathers built this country on Christian beliefs and values.

Then why the blatant and crystal clear "separation between the two?

Which founding document is "separation of Church and State" from?

Which Christian value is it that espouses slaughtering the natives and stealing their land?


What does that have to do with the subject (separation of church and state) at hand? 

If you look at the original quote here, you will see that the subject at hand is "Our founding fathers built this country on Christian beliefs and values." I believe that the relevance should be apparent.

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#24 : September 01, 2010, 08:45:38 PM

Our founding fathers built this country on Christian beliefs and values.

 
Then why the blatant and crystal clear "separation between the two?

Which founding document is "separation of Church and State" from?
I'm talking about founding fathers, per tails comment -  and the one who coined the phrase was Thomas Jefferson.

Read these quotes - does this sound like a man who wanted to found a country on Christian beliefs?  No, he was smarter than that.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm


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Biggs3535

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#25 : September 01, 2010, 09:15:02 PM

Our founding fathers built this country on Christian beliefs and values.


Then why the blatant and crystal clear "separation between the two?

Which founding document is "separation of Church and State" from?
I'm talking about founding fathers, per tails comment -� and the one who coined the phrase was Thomas Jefferson.

Read these quotes - does this sound like a man who wanted to found a country on Christian beliefs?  No, he was smarter than that.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

Then maybe it's not as "blatant and clear" as you put it.  Jefferson's phrase (which came from a letter, not any founding documents) became famous from the 1947 Supreme Court ruling that used only an eight-word phrase from that letter.  The 1848 Court understood Jefferson's intent much better.  In the Reynolds v. United States of 1848, they stated:

Quote
Coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it [Jefferson's letter] may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the Amendment thus secured. Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere [religious] opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order.


The court also briefly summarized Jefferson's intent for "the separation of church and state":

Quote
[T]he rightful purposes of civil government are for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order. In th[is] . . . is found the true distinction between what properly belongs to the church and what to the State.


Jefferson's words were from a personal, private letter.  And until 1947, the courts viewed it as such and in context.  I could be wrong, but this is the only instance that I can think of where words from a private letter became the only authorization for national policy.


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#26 : September 01, 2010, 09:19:03 PM

Our founding fathers built this country on Christian beliefs and values.

Then why the blatant and crystal clear "separation between the two?

Which founding document is "separation of Church and State" from?

Which Christian value is it that espouses slaughtering the natives and stealing their land?


What does that have to do with the subject (separation of church and state) at hand? 

If you look at the original quote here, you will see that the subject at hand is "Our founding fathers built this country on Christian beliefs and values." I believe that the relevance should be apparent.


Maybe you should address your inquiry to that poster then, since I was specifically referencing the separation of church and state as it is taught today and it's actual origins.


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#27 : September 01, 2010, 09:31:54 PM

Which founding document is "separation of Church and State" from?

 If you believe Jefferson and Madison, then it's in the Bill of Rights - specifically the first amendment. Granted, the specific phrase is not in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, which is what I am guessing you are trying to point out. While the phrase itself is best known from one of Jefferson's letters, the sentiment and idea of it is fairly clear in the 1777 draft Jefferson wrote for the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (passed in 1786, so predating the Constitution). The statute is one of the three accomplishments Jefferson requested to be part of the epitaph on his gravestone.

 The statute:
 
 
Quote
An Act for establishing religious Freedom.

Whereas, Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and therefore are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being Lord, both of body and mind yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do, that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavouring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time; that to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor, whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness, and is withdrawing from the Ministry those temporary rewards, which, proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labours for the instruction of mankind; that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry, that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence, by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages, to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right, that it tends only to corrupt the principles of that very Religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments those who will externally profess and conform to it; that though indeed, these are criminal who do not withstand such temptation, yet neither are those innocent who lay the bait in their way; that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own; that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order; and finally, that Truth is great, and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them: Be it enacted by General Assembly that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities. And though we well know that this Assembly elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of Legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding Assemblies constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare that the rights hereby asserted, are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right.

 However, I think the idea of 'separation of church and state' has changed over the years. In the founder's minds, I think it meant simply that no religion could be favored or outlawed by the government, and that people could not be forced to go to one church or another. It did not mean that folks in government could not celebrate their religion, only that they could not force their religion upon another. I realize the first amendment says "Congress shall not.." but as Congress is the legislative branch of the government, only Congress could write a law.

 The trouble today is people erroneously assume (in my opinion mind you) either  that the founding fathers wanted no connections with religion in any way where the government is involved or that they wanted a 'Christian influenced' government. I don't think they wanted any religious influence on government, but they had no issues with religious influence on the people (including the people in office) regardless of the religion they followed. It is important to remember the first amendment is a freedom of religion statement, not a freedom from religion statement.

 Probably not explaining it well, but I'm out the door to go help with preparations for Hurricane Earl.

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#28 : September 01, 2010, 09:41:35 PM

Our founding fathers built this country on Christian beliefs and values.


Then why the blatant and crystal clear "separation between the two?

Which founding document is "separation of Church and State" from?
I'm talking about founding fathers, per tails comment -� and the one who coined the phrase was Thomas Jefferson.

Read these quotes - does this sound like a man who wanted to found a country on Christian beliefs?� No, he was smarter than that.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

Then maybe it's not as "blatant and clear" as you put it.� Jefferson's phrase (which came from a letter, not any founding documents) became famous from the 1947 Supreme Court ruling that used only an eight-word phrase from that letter.� The 1848 Court understood Jefferson's intent much better.� In the Reynolds v. United States of 1848, they stated:

Quote
Coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it [Jefferson's letter] may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the Amendment thus secured. Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere [religious] opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order.


The court also briefly summarized Jefferson's intent for "the separation of church and state":

Quote
[T]he rightful purposes of civil government are for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order. In th[is] . . . is found the true distinction between what properly belongs to the church and what to the State.


Jefferson's words were from a personal, private letter.� And until 1947, the courts viewed it as such and in context.� I could be wrong, but this is the only instance that I can think of where words from a private letter became the only authorization for national policy.
I don't get where you're going with this - maybe its me.  Whether he wrote those words in a diary or put them on a billboard, it clearly [and blatantly] shows his way of thinking on the matter - thus, addressing the original comment that the founding fathers built this country on Christian morals.

In fact if you look, you'll find that both John Adams and Benjamin Franklin were both downright anti-religion.

�This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it�
-J. Adams

Here's my favorite and I think you'll find it pretty relevant to the original post I quoted way back when:
�The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion�
-J. Adams (google it)





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#29 : September 01, 2010, 09:42:58 PM

However, I think the idea of 'separation of church and state' has changed over the years. In the founder's minds, I think it meant simply that no religion could be favored or outlawed by the government, and that people could not be forced to go to one church or another. It did not mean that folks in government could not celebrate their religion, only that they could not force their religion upon another.

Agreed 100%, and I think the meaning should still be the same today.

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