IS THERE ANY ENVELOPE LEFT TO PUSH?????

[Biggs3535]

I don't get where you're going with this - maybe its me.

Merely that "separation of church and state" is nowhere in the founding documents.  How it is taught modern-day is only a recent turn in this country's history.

In fact if you look, you'll find that both John Adams and Benjamin Franklin were both downright anti-religion.

�This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it�
-J. Adams

Here's my favorite and I think you'll find it pretty relevant to the original post I quoted way back when:
�The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion�
-J. Adams (google it)

Adams was religious.  Most of his quotes (in context) you will find talking down organized religion, specifically England's organized religion.

From one of Adams' letters to Benjamin Rush from 1809:

But my friend there is something very serious in this business. The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this Earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a Sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost, who is transmitted from age to age by laying the hands of the Bishop on the heads of candidates for the Ministry. In the same manner as the Holy Ghost is transmitted from monarch to monarch by the holy oil in the vial at Rheims which was brought down from Heaven by a dove and by that other phial [vial] which I have seen in the Tower of London. There is no authority civil or religious: There can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation. Although this is all artifice and cunning in the secret original in the heart, yet they all believe it so sincerely that they would lie down their lives under the ax or the fiery fagots [wood used for burning individuals at the stake] for it. Alas, the poor weak ignorant dupe human nature. There is so much king craft, priest craft, gentlemen’s craft, people’s craft, doctors craft, lawyers craft, merchants craft, tradesmen’s craft, laborers craft and Devil’s craft in the world that it seems a desperate and impractical project to undeceive it.

There was a thread a few months back where this stuff was heavily delved into.  Since I don't want to re-post all of that stuff again, I'll see if I can find it...

[Fitz66]

but I'm out the door to go help with preparations for Hurricane Earl.

Hope its nothing but a rain storm for you guys, good luck

[ufojoe]

Actually, "serious devil worshipers," such as those in The Church of Satan, know that the devil is an imaginary figure invented by the church. Their philosophy is that one must take responsibility for their own life. Thoughts like that need to be stamped out!

You're one of the few who knows that about the Church and Satan and La Vey. "The Satanic Bible" is a great read and one of several books that opened my mind and eyes to the hypocrisy of religion - mainly Christianity.

[Fitz66]

I don't get where you're going with this - maybe its me.

Merely that "separation of church and state" is nowhere in the founding documents.  How it is taught modern-day is only a recent turn in this country's history.
Fair enough and I see your point.  I'm just not a believer that this country was founded on Christian morals because, lets face it, they're not all that different from regular good morals.  Thau shalt not kill.  Wow, what a revelation. Is that a Christian moral?  Its a line (founded on Christian morals) that you hear on talk radio/etc. all day long and it irks be because its always Christians saying it and taking, in my opinion, undue "credit" on behalf of their religion.

In fact if you look, you'll find that both John Adams and Benjamin Franklin were both downright anti-religion.

�This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it�
-J. Adams

Here's my favorite and I think you'll find it pretty relevant to the original post I quoted way back when:
�The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion�
-J. Adams (google it)

Adams was religious.  Most of his quotes (in context) you will find talking down organized religion, specifically England's organized religion.

From one of Adams' letters to Benjamin Rush from 1809:

But my friend there is something very serious in this business. The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this Earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a Sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost, who is transmitted from age to age by laying the hands of the Bishop on the heads of candidates for the Ministry. In the same manner as the Holy Ghost is transmitted from monarch to monarch by the holy oil in the vial at Rheims which was brought down from Heaven by a dove and by that other phial [vial] which I have seen in the Tower of London. There is no authority civil or religious: There can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation. Although this is all artifice and cunning in the secret original in the heart, yet they all believe it so sincerely that they would lie down their lives under the ax or the fiery fagots [wood used for burning individuals at the stake] for it. Alas, the poor weak ignorant dupe human nature. There is so much king craft, priest craft, gentlemen�s craft, people�s craft, doctors craft, lawyers craft, merchants craft, tradesmen�s craft, laborers craft and Devil�s craft in the world that it seems a desperate and impractical project to undeceive it.

There was a thread a few months back where this stuff was heavily delved into.  Since I don't want to re-post all of that stuff again, I'll see if I can find it...
I must've missed that one - I'll try and find it and scroll through

[burger40]

isn't there a bunch of human sacrifices made or offered in the Bible?

nope lol. abraham weas asked to sacrifice his son to see if he loved god more than anything. god kept him from sacrificing isaac. later in OT it is revealed that israel had started sacrificing children by burning them to Molech. this was why israel got brought out of their land into captivity.

[Thomas]

how can you worship something "you know" doesnt exist? So a true "satanist" believes there is no devil? That leans toward atheism IMO.
Well, I'm not going to pretend I know that much about "true satanists" but I do know there are druids which exhibit faith in nature (trees and animals); namely people that worship the thing created rather than the creator.

[SnookAU]

So just because some of the founders were "Christian" mean that this is a "Christian" country?

What stupid logic.

What about the founders who were deists?

Sadly, the religious wackos in this country are so brainwashed about their religious beliefs that its seeped into their history lessons as well.

Just ask any of them why the word "God" doesn't appear anywhere in the Constitution... They usually aren't aware of that.  Why not?  Because Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck leave that part out.

[Biggs3535]

So just because some of the founders were "Christian" mean that this is a "Christian" country?

What stupid logic.

What about the founders who were deists?

The vast majority of the signers of the DoI and Constitution had Christian values.  There were some deists, a couple who didn't have any faith one way or the other, but the vast majority were Christian:

Here is a list of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence:

http://www.usconstitution.net/declarsigndata.html

There are a total of three who are listed as Deists - Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and James Wilson, but they also have Wilson listed as an Episcopalian.  The site even has a footnote regarding the Deist label:

Note on religion: Pinning down the religion of some people on this list is notoriously difficult. The "Deist" label, in particular, is a difficult one to assign. The best attempt has been made to assign labels accurately - the assignment can be debated, and this fact is readily acknowledged.

Even giving you those three, which all three are highly debatable, that's 3 out of 56 signers or 5%.  How do you reconcile that with your "The United States of America , was founded by Deists NOT Christians" sig, nukepineisland?

Nuke - we can debate back and forth about Jefferson and Franklin all you want, since they both have mixed writings on the issue.  But they are only 2 of 56 signers if the DoI, so I'll ask you for a third time:

For argument's sake, lets say that I accept your premise that Jefferson was a Deist (even though he himself said he was a "disciple of the doctrines of Christ") and that Benjamin Franklin was a Deist (even though he denounces Deism later in life).  There were still 50+ out of 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence and 33+ out of 39 signers of the Constitution who were NOT Deists. 

How do you reconcile your claim that America was founded by Deists?

Sadly, the religious wackos in this country are so brainwashed about their religious beliefs that its seeped into their history lessons as well.

I could argue the exact opposite because the actual history of the founders has been twisted to reflect modern views.  There are people who think "separation of church and state" as is taught today is what the founders intended, and it's not.  There isn't any founding document that lays out that subject like it is taught today in schools.

Here is the thread on this subject from a few months ago, if anyone is interested.  There was some good discussion in it.  Let's not try to bring good discussion into any of Guru's ridiculous threads.

[Skull and Bones]

LaVey isn't the only authority on Satanism.  Google "spiritual satanism".

[Biggs3535]

Leave it to someone like you and your buddy Shadow to seriously believe the guy in the devil mask should be taken for an actual religion?

Religion - 1.  a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects.
                2.  something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience


A religion can be worshiping anything.  Whether you like it or not, this qualifies and is perfectly legal in this country.

[white dragon]

If the founding fathers intended on making this a CHRISTIAN NATION then they would have simply included the Ten Commandments into Constitution or made it as such a political article decrying our governing. They did not. I wonder why?

[Fitz66]

Because Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck leave that part out.

I just found out that Glen Beck was a Mormon.  Is that common knowledge?

[Biggs3535]

Because Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck leave that part out.

I just found out that Glen Beck was a Mormon.  Is that common knowledge?

Pretty much.

[kevabuc]

I think that the notion of the founding principles as being built on Christian principles alone is to sell the entire founding of our nation short.

I have always understood that the founding fathers were heavily steeped in the prevailing times of Christian culture and traditions as oppossed to being solely based in Christian morals or doctines. I get this understanding by both the Constitution as well as its' supporting document, the Declaration of Independence, and I do believe the Declaration should not be considered a separate, unrelated document to the Constitution. Based on the believe that to institute a new Constitution without stating a legimate right to do so would be arbitrary and weaken the foundation of establishing a new nation. The Declaration then, gives legitamacy to the Constitution and this is why the date of the Declaration was referenced in Article VII of the Constitution.

The Constitution represents a respect for Christain culture in two parts of the Constitution. First, in respect to the Presidents veto power the Constitution makes reference to the time frame allowed the President being 10 days, not including Sundays. The second being in the date of the signing being written as the Seventeenth Day of September, in the year of Our Lord. These are both common traditions, but not an actual conclusive reference to being built on Christian principles.

In the Declaration we find a broader example of why Christian principles alone were not the true basis for the founding of the country. The phrase,"with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor", just prior to the signatures, is a very telling line about the beliefs of all the signers. The idea of Divine Providence is not exclusive to Christianity, however, this idea that it's protection was guiding the signers cannot be disputed due to the very signing of this document.

To say that the founding principles were guided by strickly Christian guidelines would be to disregard the broader belief in Divine Providence as the truer guiding of the founders as they set out to create this new nation.   

[SnookAU]

Still can't avoid the fact that "God" is left out of the Constitution.  If Christianity was such a building block of our new country, then why is there NO MENTION WHATSOEVER of it in our most important document?