Is Morris Slowing the Growth of McCoy?

[Feel Real Good]

escobar wrote:

Biggs3535 wrote:

escobar wrote:

BucBalla85 wrote:

I think since McCoy is our best pass rusher Morris is trying to put him in position to make plays. Price and Stylz are our other good pass rushers. However they arent what we need. The team needs a DE that is a pass rushing specialists. If we have that DE we need I think you will see McCoy stay in his position more than get moved around. I think all this is, is Morris trying to get a better pass rush because he doesnt have the DEs right now to do it. Our defense is far more effective when we dont have to send blitzes and just rush the dline. Morris is trying to figure out how to do that with what hes got.

A good DT is supposed to make average ends better, that's the whole reason it's considered the key position of our defense. The fact of the matter is GM (for multiple reasons perhaps) isn't getting it done. If/when he becomes the dominant DT we drafted him to be, the play of our DE's is going to improve dramatically. If we need good/great DE's in order for Gerald to be a legit NFL tackle then we made a mistake in drafting him.

We're 3 games into the season.  Less than 20 DT's have a sack in the NFL, and only one of those guys is a rookie.  I'm not sure what you've expected from McCoy in his first three NFL games, but it's apparently a bit too much.  Defensive Tackles have a bigger learning curve than most any other position on defense.  4-5 sacks was my expectation for McCoy, and there is still plenty of time to hit that.

Were you this tough on Gaines Adams in his first 3 career starts?  Adams has the same stat line as McCoy, while playing DE.

I'm more concerned with his tackles and at times the poor run D. As I said I realize it has been only three games, I guess I just expected more out of him and Price. After reading what Steve White had to say it really just goes back to the real problem, inexperienced people calling the shots.

Steve White doesn't always see things clearly. I remember multiple times last year him singing the praises of Hovan and Sims while the rest of us saw them getting dominated. We signed McCoy to a 5 year contract, not a 5 day contract. He's been in an NFL strength and conditioning program for 5 months. He's playing against guys who have fully grown into their bodies and know every trick for holding, cutting, and various cheap shots. And DT isn't even the only problem for run defense. We still have a MLB who sucks against the run and the safeties leave a lot to be desired, too. Lastly, DT's aren't paid to make tackles. Through 3 games Kevin Williams has 8 tackles to McCoy's 5.

[Biggs3535]

JDouble wrote:

Actually Biggs, 3 rookie DTs have sacks. Suh, Alualu, and Geno Adkins.'

My mistake* on Alualu, but I wasn't counting guys 0.5 a sack which is what Adkins has.

*note to dbucfan and bucjoe on how to replay with a non-childish response like "Bite me" when I was corrected on a factual error, however small it is.

[escobar]

Feel Real Good wrote:

escobar wrote:

BucBalla85 wrote:

I think since McCoy is our best pass rusher Morris is trying to put him in position to make plays. Price and Stylz are our other good pass rushers. However they arent what we need. The team needs a DE that is a pass rushing specialists. If we have that DE we need I think you will see McCoy stay in his position more than get moved around. I think all this is, is Morris trying to get a better pass rush because he doesnt have the DEs right now to do it. Our defense is far more effective when we dont have to send blitzes and just rush the dline. Morris is trying to figure out how to do that with what hes got.

A good DT is supposed to make average ends better, that's the whole reason it's considered the key position of our defense. The fact of the matter is GM (for multiple reasons perhaps) isn't getting it done. If/when he becomes the dominant DT we drafted him to be, the play of our DE's is going to improve dramatically. If we need good/great DE's in order for Gerald to be a legit NFL tackle then we made a mistake in drafting him.

Good DT's get theirs no matter who is next to them and good DE's get theirs no matter who is next to them. When Sapp had 12.5 sacks in 1999 (the second best he would do in his entire career), the DE playing next to him, Steve White, got 2 sacks. When Kevin Williams got 11.5 sacks in 2004 (the best he would do his entire career), the DE playing next to him, Kenechi Udeze, got 5 sacks.

My point is that we shouldn't be talking about needing new DE's in order for our pass rush to become successful. It's a nice luxury, but as you pointed out if a guy is a stud (Sapp), it doesn't matter who is playing next to him. Since we took McCoy third overall I expect a certain level of dominance that doesn't require the need of premier DE's.  The poster I responded to was talking about our lack of pass rush being the reason Raheem is moving McCoy around, IMO our lack of pass rush is because McCoy and Price aren't getting it done, not because we don't have top flight DE's.  If we are having the same issue in week 13 as we are now it will be time to panic, for now it's just something to pay attention to.

[escobar]

Feel Real Good wrote:

escobar wrote:

Biggs3535 wrote:

escobar wrote:

BucBalla85 wrote:

I think since McCoy is our best pass rusher Morris is trying to put him in position to make plays. Price and Stylz are our other good pass rushers. However they arent what we need. The team needs a DE that is a pass rushing specialists. If we have that DE we need I think you will see McCoy stay in his position more than get moved around. I think all this is, is Morris trying to get a better pass rush because he doesnt have the DEs right now to do it. Our defense is far more effective when we dont have to send blitzes and just rush the dline. Morris is trying to figure out how to do that with what hes got.

A good DT is supposed to make average ends better, that's the whole reason it's considered the key position of our defense. The fact of the matter is GM (for multiple reasons perhaps) isn't getting it done. If/when he becomes the dominant DT we drafted him to be, the play of our DE's is going to improve dramatically. If we need good/great DE's in order for Gerald to be a legit NFL tackle then we made a mistake in drafting him.

We're 3 games into the season.  Less than 20 DT's have a sack in the NFL, and only one of those guys is a rookie.  I'm not sure what you've expected from McCoy in his first three NFL games, but it's apparently a bit too much.  Defensive Tackles have a bigger learning curve than most any other position on defense.  4-5 sacks was my expectation for McCoy, and there is still plenty of time to hit that.

Were you this tough on Gaines Adams in his first 3 career starts?  Adams has the same stat line as McCoy, while playing DE.

I'm more concerned with his tackles and at times the poor run D. As I said I realize it has been only three games, I guess I just expected more out of him and Price. After reading what Steve White had to say it really just goes back to the real problem, inexperienced people calling the shots.

Steve White doesn't always see things clearly. I remember multiple times last year him singing the praises of Hovan and Sims while the rest of us saw them getting dominated. We signed McCoy to a 5 year contract, not a 5 day contract. He's been in an NFL strength and conditioning program for 5 months. He's playing against guys who have fully grown into their bodies and know every trick for holding, cutting, and various cheap shots. And DT isn't even the only problem for run defense. We still have a MLB who sucks against the run and the safeties leave a lot to be desired, too. Lastly, DT's aren't paid to make tackles. Through 3 games Kevin Williams has 8 tackles to McCoy's 5.

No offense but I'll take White's word over yours when it comes to our d-line. You may not always agree with him but at the end of the day a former NFL lineman knows far more than any of us when it comes to critiquing the line.

[Feel Real Good]

escobar wrote:

Feel Real Good wrote:

escobar wrote:

BucBalla85 wrote:

I think since McCoy is our best pass rusher Morris is trying to put him in position to make plays. Price and Stylz are our other good pass rushers. However they arent what we need. The team needs a DE that is a pass rushing specialists. If we have that DE we need I think you will see McCoy stay in his position more than get moved around. I think all this is, is Morris trying to get a better pass rush because he doesnt have the DEs right now to do it. Our defense is far more effective when we dont have to send blitzes and just rush the dline. Morris is trying to figure out how to do that with what hes got.

A good DT is supposed to make average ends better, that's the whole reason it's considered the key position of our defense. The fact of the matter is GM (for multiple reasons perhaps) isn't getting it done. If/when he becomes the dominant DT we drafted him to be, the play of our DE's is going to improve dramatically. If we need good/great DE's in order for Gerald to be a legit NFL tackle then we made a mistake in drafting him.

Good DT's get theirs no matter who is next to them and good DE's get theirs no matter who is next to them. When Sapp had 12.5 sacks in 1999 (the second best he would do in his entire career), the DE playing next to him, Steve White, got 2 sacks. When Kevin Williams got 11.5 sacks in 2004 (the best he would do his entire career), the DE playing next to him, Kenechi Udeze, got 5 sacks.

My point is that we shouldn't be talking about needing new DE's in order for our pass rush to become successful. It's a nice luxury, but as you pointed out if a guy is a stud (Sapp), it doesn't matter who is playing next to him. Since we took McCoy third overall I expect a certain level of dominance that doesn't require the need of premier DE's.  The poster I responded to was talking about our lack of pass rush being the reason Raheem is moving McCoy around, IMO our lack of pass rush is because McCoy and Price aren't getting it done, not because we don't have top flight DE's.  If we are having the same issue in week 13 as we are now it will be time to panic, for now it's just something to pay attention to.

I agree it's not the DE's faults whether McCoy does or doesn't have a sack yet. It's a function of 1.) McCoy just not being physically or technically developed to the level he'll hopefully be for the next 6-8 years and 2.) just too small a sample size of 3 games. DT's getting 10+ sacks in a year like Sapp are extremely rare and it's just not realistic to expect that out of McCoy. Assuming McCoy ends up a good player, but not awesome, he'll have 7-8 sacks in his peak years and 4-5 in an average year. You don't get 1/3 of a sack every game on your way to 5. Most players will basically just have 3-4 really good games where they'll get 1 or even 2 sacks and the rest of the games they'll be pretty average. Just like Adrian Peterson doesn't rush for 150 yards every week. You may want consistent dominance, but that's just not the way it works. The other players get paid, too.

As for McCoy moving all around, I think it's mostly that Morris has a lot more in common with deception-based defensive coordinators like Jim Johnson and Steve Spagnuolo who line up their players all over the place. The entire NFL is shifting toward those kinds of schemes and coaches like Monte Kiffin who line up the same players in the same places every play are being phased out. The passing game is too easy now. The good quarterbacks can pick that stuff apart easily.

[ryan24]

The bigger concern with McCoy is the trend downward....as much of a trend 3 games can be.

I'm not overly concerned at this point but that's the situation.

[Feel Real Good]

And for the record I wanted Russell Okung at #3, so really have no reason to make excuses for McCoy, other than being a rational human being.

[nubcake]

casinoace wrote:

DiSalvo wrote:

McCoy is already better as a rookie than Steve White ever was. WHo is this scrub to be critquing everyone else ??

If it wasn't for Greg Spires taking over for Steve White , we might never have won a superbowl....

Brad Culpepper has similar thoughts as Steve.

But, to be honest. I dont think they really know what theyre talking about. They still think this is the same system they played in. They would be better off covering the Bears defense.

I agree The Crane was a big reason why we won the super bowl. People comparing Kyle Moore to him, dont realize how good he was.

I'd have to agree with this. That's not to say that Raheem's use of McCoy is necessarily correct, but White's reasoning is based on a system we simply don't run anymore. Morris' current system is a hybrid that really doesn't exist elsewhere, so only time will tell if McCoy's usage within it is an efficient use of his talents(and if the system itself has a place in the NFL, for that matter).

[Detrimental]

Its 3 games, get it time before we jump to conclusions.

[Capt_Chaos]

i rewatched the game tape two or 3 times, and even though I do believe that he is gonna be great there is a problem here. In the passing game he penetrates the line alot but he overshoots the QB or gets manhandled by the OL.  somewhere something isnt working, and just like the rest of this team Im prtty sure the issue is coaching decissions....

[burger40]

1. Way too early
2. Lets see what happens now that Crowder and Bennett are going to be coming in a lot more and we actually have guys on the edge proving a semblance of a pass rush besides Stylez and Quincy on blitzes.

[nubcake]

Capt_Chaos wrote:

i rewatched the game tape two or 3 times, and even though I do believe that he is gonna be great there is a problem here. In the passing game he penetrates the line alot but he overshoots the QB or gets manhandled by the OL.  somewhere something isnt working, and just like the rest of this team Im prtty sure the issue is coaching decissions....

Or it could be, oh I don't know, the fact that he's a rookie who's started 3 games in the NFL.

[ufojoe]

nubcake wrote: White's reasoning is based on a system we simply don't run anymore. Morris' current system is a hybrid that really doesn't exist elsewhere,

Wrong. If you read more of what White had to say about Rah's system, you wouldn't make such ignorant comments. Sorry to be so blunt but you're assuming when all you have to do is read more of what White had to say since Rah's system was unveiled. His opinions are based on what he sees going on with the CURRENT system. Doesn't make him right but at least get the basics down.

[nubcake]

ufojoe wrote:

nubcake wrote: White's reasoning is based on a system we simply don't run anymore. Morris' current system is a hybrid that really doesn't exist elsewhere,

Wrong. If you read more of what White had to say about Rah's system, you wouldn't make such ignorant comments. Sorry to be so blunt but you're assuming when all you have to do is read more of what White had to say since Rah's system was unveiled. His opinions are based on what he sees going on with the CURRENT system. Doesn't make him right but at least get the basics down.

I'm assuming you're referring to other articles, because he really didn't refer to it much in this one. A couple times he did mention that we've lined up in several different formations(which actually helps support the decision, to a limited extent), but in his bit about the undertackle he referred to Sapp and Randle. The thing is, both of those guys DID play in a different system. Again, we can question all day whether or not McCoy being moved around is a wise decision(and I'm leaning towards it being a poor one) but he really can't be compared to two guys who played in a different system than he did. That's like complaining about Revis because he doesn't get any sacks like Barber did through his career.

Obviously he's well aware that the system is different, I'm not suggesting he's some ignorant fan who doesn't even know it's not Monte's system. I'm simply saying that, by saying McCoy is being held back by pointing to the dominance exhibited by Sapp and Randle, he's pointing back to guys who dominated in a system different than ours, and thus their role and responsibility will also be different.

[WelshBuc]

Dum and Heemy should have listened to Monte and drafted Eric Berry.