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Uncle Stan

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: December 18, 2010, 09:03:04 AM

Is it the coaching or the players, or maybe some of both?

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Feel Real Good

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#1 : December 18, 2010, 10:03:44 AM

Players.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

ryan24

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#2 : December 18, 2010, 11:09:47 AM

Gotta look at the pedigree. The players.

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nitey

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#3 : December 18, 2010, 12:36:23 PM

Not sure I agree. Last season under Joe Barry, Geno Hayes played very well, this season, not so much. Last season, Ruud looked awful behind Hovan and Simms, just bad behind McCoy and Miller. Would Barry's coaching made Ruud a better player? A couple of seasons ago, Ruud looked much better than he has the last two. Coaching or player? Not sure. Black has played better this season than last, but really didn't make the impact we were lead to believe he was going to make this season.

So I'm not convinced it's the players, but I'm not convinced it's the coaching either. Either way, I am almost positive we'll see 3 new starting linebackers next season.

JMO.

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#4 : December 18, 2010, 01:07:57 PM

Scheme, coaching and players. Ruud isn't as bad in the middle as most think, but neither is he the thumper that most want. Though to his credit the scheme is designed in that way to focus stuff away from Ruud and to the OLB, now the 2 starting OLB's have been mediocre at best, I'd say that Watson and Hayward have been better in spot duty for them. Either way a few changes need to be made and I think if you can't get a good DE in Rd1 of the draft you go OLB.

Detrimental

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#5 : December 18, 2010, 02:54:51 PM

Players. We have too much finesse on this team, way too much. Nobody in this core is physical at the POA and will willingly blow up blockers. Fix that and this run D will be pretty good.

JDouble

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#6 : December 18, 2010, 03:00:43 PM

Not sure I agree. Last season under Joe Barry, Geno Hayes played very well, this season, not so much. Last season, Ruud looked awful behind Hovan and Simms, just bad behind McCoy and Miller. Would Barry's coaching made Ruud a better player? A couple of seasons ago, Ruud looked much better than he has the last two. Coaching or player? Not sure. Black has played better this season than last, but really didn't make the impact we were lead to believe he was going to make this season.

So I'm not convinced it's the players, but I'm not convinced it's the coaching either. Either way, I am almost positive we'll see 3 new starting linebackers next season.

JMO.

Last year Geno did have more splash plays, but he also lead the league in missed tackles by all OLBs.


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#7 : December 18, 2010, 05:39:17 PM

Not sure I agree. Last season under Joe Barry, Geno Hayes played very well, this season, not so much. Last season, Ruud looked awful behind Hovan and Simms, just bad behind McCoy and Miller. Would Barry's coaching made Ruud a better player? A couple of seasons ago, Ruud looked much better than he has the last two. Coaching or player? Not sure. Black has played better this season than last, but really didn't make the impact we were lead to believe he was going to make this season.

So I'm not convinced it's the players, but I'm not convinced it's the coaching either. Either way, I am almost positive we'll see 3 new starting linebackers next season.

JMO.

Last year Geno did have more splash plays, but he also lead the league in missed tackles by all OLBs.
Exactly. Hayes had just as many bad plays last year as he does this year, he just had a few more good plays which helped people to overlook the bad ones.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

ryan24

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#8 : December 18, 2010, 07:02:04 PM

Players. We have too much finesse on this team, way too much. Nobody in this core is physical at the POA and will willingly blow up blockers. Fix that and this run D will be pretty good.

The scheme lends itself to players who are better in space. So the fact that they can't get off blocks isn't surprising. The problem is that the OLB are out of their gap too often....particularly Hayes. These guys are also a 2nd rounder, a 4th rounder and a 6th rounder. Now....the Bucs have been able to fill in in spots with late rounders who've had some impact but I don't think you can fill your roster with them. The Bucs, at some point, will probably have to invest a premium pick on a LBer whether it's a guy more suited to Will or Mike with at least a slight switch in philosophy.

Happy and Peppy and Bursting with love.

CyberDilemma

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#9 : December 18, 2010, 07:20:52 PM

As long as I can remember, the Bucs have always had a plug-and-play player at SLB. It just has never been a premium position in their scheme. They have pretty much always had a smart, solid player at MLB and, of course, Derrick Brooks at WLB to make up for any inherent weaknesses in the other players and/or the scheme. Once Derrick started to move past his prime, some of these other weaknesses have started to be exposed. I am not sure what the answer is. I really like what I have seen so far out of Dekoda Watson. I really hope he continues to develop at a rapid pace. Hayes has a lot of skills but he is still very young and some of his immaturity shows up from time-to-time. I don't think he invests the study/film time that his predecessor did either. Ruud just needs to grow some nads.

JDouble

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#10 : December 18, 2010, 07:46:16 PM

This isn't the old defense though. Black has actually been more important that Hayes this year. Rah wants the SLB to blitz quite often. If he can't get pressure it hurts the whole defense. I expect to see Watson starting at SLB next year simply because he excels at rushing the passer.

Anyway, the SLB spot is just as important if not more important than the WLB in Rah's defense.


CyberDilemma

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#11 : December 18, 2010, 07:51:58 PM

This isn't the old defense though. Black has actually been more important that Hayes this year. Rah wants the SLB to blitz quite often. If he can't get pressure it hurts the whole defense. I expect to see Watson starting at SLB next year simply because he excels at rushing the passer.

Anyway, the SLB spot is just as important if not more important than the WLB in Rah's defense.


It's not that Morris wants the SLB position, in particular,  to blitz often. Morris has mentioned several times that he is just trying to play to his players' strengths and put his players in a position to do what they do best. Black has shown a knack for pass rushing, so that's why his number had been called.

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#12 : December 18, 2010, 08:54:28 PM

I posed this question in another thread, but it applies here as well:

Last year under coach Baker, the DBs struggled for most of the year and for the most part the LBs played well.  The Bucs bring back Coach Lake for the DBs and they are playing well this year.  Coach Barry leaves and they move coach Baker to LBs and this year they are struggling.  This reminds of the year the Burns was the DBs coach and they played horrible.  He gets fired and they bring back Coach Morris and the DBs go back to being a strong unit again.  It seems to me that there is a correlation here.

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ryan24

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#13 : December 18, 2010, 10:22:59 PM

This isn't the old defense though. Black has actually been more important that Hayes this year. Rah wants the SLB to blitz quite often. If he can't get pressure it hurts the whole defense. I expect to see Watson starting at SLB next year simply because he excels at rushing the passer.

Anyway, the SLB spot is just as important if not more important than the WLB in Rah's defense.

Doesn't change the fact that the OLBs are going to be the playmakers and if the Will is either out of position or missing tackles when he is, it will be a problem. The role of the Mike in the defense has not changed that much and it remains a stepback, cleanup position in addition to the deep coverage responsibilities the role requires. Thus....the Bucs need better play from Hayes as well as the other two.

Happy and Peppy and Bursting with love.

nitey

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#14 : December 18, 2010, 10:44:00 PM

Watson wrote

"Last year under coach Baker, the DBs struggled for most of the year and for the most part the LBs played well.  The Bucs bring back Coach Lake for the DBs and they are playing well this year.  Coach Barry leaves and they move coach Baker to LBs and this year they are struggling. "

In Charlie's PI Quick hits article today he mentioned that the Morris was looking to replace the LB coach next season. I'm not sure if he meant that Baker was leaving or if he was moving to another position or perhaps moving to an assistant role. But it appears that Morris believes that coaching is part of the problem.

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