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BucNY

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#15 : December 21, 2010, 08:06:29 AM

I am a fan of Raheem Morris and I didn't mind seeing Jon Gruden go, but does anybody ever miss Gruden? Just wondering.

I don't miss Jon at all. These last 2 seasons have been the most exciting bucs ball i've watched because we actually have a future. Imagine how much different this team would be if Gruden was still our coach? We wouldn't have Freeman, thats for damn sure!

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jerseybucsfan

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#16 : December 21, 2010, 08:53:52 AM

This thread drips with malice, hatred, which is unique in terms of fanbases in the United States. You will rarely find a head coach that won a championship in MLB, NFL or NBA who is so disrespected by so many without having shot someone or gone to jail or for that matter done anything negatively in a moral sense. Win a title in most cities and you're loved. Gruden had that briefly and then a misguided fanbase and malevolent media ate away at that like buzzards on a carcass, which is why this team is seen as mostly irrelevant nationally. It doesn't defend its own, it undermines it. And many of you are so guilty of undermning that which you claim to love.
IMHO Gruden wanted a young franchise QB, but a few things happened to stymie that: 1. We won in his first year. It probably would have worked out dramatically different had we won in his SECOND year. In that scenario, we begin to go young, win in 2003 and then reap the benefits of the first draft in 2004. By winning in 2002 and then being so competitive in 2003, we began rebulding too late, 2. We put ourselves in such a bad cap situation before his arrival that it led to horrid personnel decisions for most of his tenure. The Thomas Jones acquisition was originally one of the good ones (getting him) and eventually one of the awful ones (letting him go) of Gruden's tenure. This isn't counting the awful FA class of 2004.  Imagine more cap room and keeping Jones, which led to .... 3. Bad drafting. This goes from McKay to Allen and then partially (although not as much as many of you like to believe) on Gruden. One bad pick became two or three. But simplify it like this: the Simms pick made sure we didn't draft a franchise QB long enough to sink things. The Clayton pick killed as at one starting WR spot and by not picking Steven Jackson led to the Caddy pick which hurt us long-term at RB. The Dexter Jackson WR pick was a complete bust, the Adams pick (which led to DEATH) was plain unlucky.
And as I have stated before in previous threads, the primary reason to let Gruden go was simply poor luck (the Washington playoff loss, getting them instead of the young Giants that year, winding up in the spot to get Adams and not Calvin Johnson, the injuries to guys like Buenning, Sears.) You try a different hand.
Gruden got more than most out of the 2005 and 2007 teams. He won a Super Bowl with a team that was heading in the wrong direction for two years, which is incredible. But he was unlucky for at least five of his seven years and was part of a group that drafted poorly, meaning you try a totally different path. His mojo seeped away in his final month of 2008 and so the timing of his departure was appropriate.
I miss his successes, but I'm glad we went the way we did WHEN we did.  We can disagree about the timing. Maybe he could have gone after 2006 and had we drafted better earlier, maybe we'd already be an elite team again. But there's something to be said for class, dignity. Bill Walsh had it. Joe Montana had it. Derrick Brooks had it. Right now it seems that Josh Freeman has it.
It's an underlying element lost on much of this media (though fortunately NOT SR and the PR gang) and much of this fanbase and it's yet another part of why so many seats are empty.
I'm not talking about those who don't have $ and don't attend. But if you're the type wearing Yankee apparel and support that pseudo-local team to the hilt and you're an ex-season ticketholder, then it might be you. 2009 hurt and we had good reason to doubt Raheem. The ending of this season hurts too, but if we give him another five or six more good players how Gruden ENDED will become irrelevant and the team will be very very RELEVANT for a long time.

In Verner We Trust

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#17 : December 21, 2010, 08:57:58 AM

Respect what Gruden did for the franchise and the city, but I like the current direction of the team.

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jerseybucsfan

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#18 : December 21, 2010, 09:04:54 AM

Absolutely, bucpride. That's my point. Don't throw dirt on your own legacy. And let no one remind me of fading a bit in 2007, fading a lot in 2008, winning no playoff games AFTER the Super Bowl. We know the Anti-Gruden propaganda. Winning three division titles in seven years is wonderful. The run was over, move on with class and hope Raheem can get us three division titles or MORE in the next seven years.
Class is never out of style.

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bradentonian

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#19 : December 21, 2010, 09:09:26 AM

Gruden was canned years too late.   For those that hung onto the "cap hell" mantra for all these years, Dom and Rah have shown that you can dump the vets and start from scratch and build a competitive team.   


jerseybucsfan

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#20 : December 21, 2010, 09:28:34 AM

But competitive isn't what got Gruden fired. He did competitive in 2007 and 2008. Heck, some said 2005 was only ''competitive'' and it really was a lot more. But Dom made brilliant personnel decisions. Late McKay, Allen and to a lesser extent Gruden didn't. Rah isn't where he is without excellent drafting and MD's shrewd moves like Blount and Larsen. Doing what Dom did is extraordinary.
Good GMs did what Dom did over two or three seasons. Just a fraction of that again in 2011 and we become elite.

In Verner We Trust

CBWx2

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#21 : December 21, 2010, 10:21:26 AM

Who cares what's going on in the stands? What's important is what's happening on the field. Gruden filled in the holes and won one SB. After that he slowly destroyed the team. Why would anybody miss that? Gruden might be a great OC (I question that), but he knows nothing about building a team from scratch or even maintaining a decent team. It amazes me that his name pops up every time a HC gets fired. Gruden is where he belongs. He is a media personality who has some insight to the workings of the game, that's all. He can't relate to the players. Raheem Morris can, and more importantly, the players can relate to him.

No, I don't miss Jon Gruden, not at all.

Sorry to say it, but this post rings true. We won a SB with Gruden, and then only made the playoffs twice in the next six seasons and never won another playoff game. Winning a SB is only part of building a legacy. You are always going to be remembered more by the way things ended than you are for the way they began.

I'm sure there are a ton of Ravens fans that were happy to see Brian Billick get fired and are happy with the direction that John Harbaugh is taking the team. That doesn't make them bad Ravens fans, nor does it mean they are throwing dirt on their SB win. Billick won a SB, and then got complacent and the team became stagnant for the next seven seasons. Notice that Billick has not been hired by anyone else. Is that because he is a good coach, or possibly exposed as a mediocre coach who happened to head a dominant team. Gruden, Billick, and Mike Ditka all have one thing on common. They were "offensive masterminds" who road the coattails of a dominant defense that was already dominant before they got there. None of them actually built a formidable offense for their teams, despite that supposedly being their strong suits.


docbravo

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#22 : December 21, 2010, 11:49:07 AM


Bashing the most successful coach this franchise has ever had makes you a better fan!

Praising the most unsuccessful playoff coach this franchise has ever had has the same effect.  ::)

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#23 : December 21, 2010, 11:50:43 AM

Sam Wyche laid the foundation with some great talent and was fired too soon IMO. Tony Dungy built on that and made the Bucs contenders. He was fired at just the right time. He's a great human being but the Bucs would never have won the SB. He needed Peyton Manning to do that. The Bucs needed Jon Gruden. Without him there would be no Lombardi Trophy in Tampa. I am convinced of that and appreciate what he did. I'm not throwing dirt at him and I fully understand that he was handicapped by cap space(McKay's fault) and a lack of premium draft picks. I also recognize that several of the personnel decisions were not left up to him. He made the decision to go with veteran players from other teams. IMO talent suffered at the hands of experience. I can't even imagine what our roster would look like if he was still here, but I do know it wouldn't be anything like what we have now. I doubt the Saints or foulgoons would feel threatened any time in this coming decade. I appreciate 2002. He took over a great team and left it with little talent and no direction. He became a handicap and it is not disrespectful to be glad he is gone. I felt the exact same way about Tony Dungy, even though his contributions were over several years, and Gruden's were mainly just one. The truth is never disrespectful. It is what it is,

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#24 : December 21, 2010, 11:57:12 AM

Jon is perfect where he is...


Chief Joseph

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#25 : December 21, 2010, 01:25:39 PM

These last 2 seasons have been the most exciting bucs ball i've watched because we actually have a future.

Lack of a future ruin the Superbowl for you, Miss Cleo?

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

DefenseWins

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#26 : December 21, 2010, 04:11:47 PM

I am a fan of Raheem Morris and I didn't mind seeing Jon Gruden go, but does anybody ever miss Gruden? Just wondering.

No.


 





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CBWx2

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#27 : December 21, 2010, 04:18:13 PM

Sam Wyche laid the foundation with some great talent and was fired too soon IMO.

Wyche coached the team for 4 years and never won more than 7 games. He drafted some good players, but largely due to us picking so early in drafts because we had such poor seasons. He was fired because there was little to no progress during his tenure, and in his final season, when it looked like we were turning a corner by starting off 5-2, we went 2-7 the rest of the way.

Tony Dungy built on that and made the Bucs contenders. He was fired at just the right time. He's a great human being but the Bucs would never have won the SB. He needed Peyton Manning to do that. The Bucs needed Jon Gruden. Without him there would be no Lombardi Trophy in Tampa.

I hear this all the time from people, but lets examine this for a second.

When Dungy took over the Colts, it's true that Peyton Manning was entering his 5th season and had already been to 2 Pro Bowls. But the Colts had just come off of a 6-10 season in which they were ranked dead last in team defense. They only had 2 games were opposing offenses scored less than 23 points on them, and had 7 games where they gave up over 30 points. Dungy retained Tom Moore, but he also had the task of rebuilding the defense from the ground up. The Colts were ranked 32nd in total defense in 2001. In 2002, they were ranked 8th. Guys like Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis, Bob Sanders, Antoine Bethea, Clint Session, Gary Brackett, etc. were all drafted by him.

When Jon Gruden took over the Bucs, he inherited a team that had gone to the playoffs 4 times in the previous 5 years, and that had finished the 2001 season 15th in total offense. In 2002, the team ranked 18th in total offense. There isn't a single player currently on our roster that has had the same impact on offense as some of the guys Dungy drafted on defense for the Colts.


CyberDilemma

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#28 : December 21, 2010, 04:22:23 PM

Does Anybody Miss Jon Gruden?


Java still sleeps with Gruden's autographed pic under his pillow. Does that answer your question?

WelshBuc

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#29 : December 21, 2010, 04:56:22 PM

I miss going to the playoffs and winning a Super Bowl.  But 11-19 is almost as good.

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