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jerseybucsfan

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#15 : January 04, 2011, 01:57:42 PM

TB37, by your definition, if Bradford goes 25-6 next year then we have to wait until 2012 to call him elite?
I'll bet that no one makes him wait and I wouldn't either. Remember that as bad as the Rams were last year, a lot of their improvement can be credited to their defense this year. Their defense was in fact ranked higher than their offense.
As for Clayton in 2004, it's a reasonable argument except this: he wasn't the sixth-ranked WR in anyone's mind.
He wasn't top 10 in receiving yards or receiving touchdowns or receptions or yards per reception. None of them. He didn't play on a good team. By fantasy rank, according to profootball-reference.com, he actually WAS the 13th-ranked WR. I remember at the time thinking he was around 15th-best and unfortunately he only regressed from there.
I'd put MW right about where Clayton was at that point. He's more explosive, scores more, has more speed, but drops it too often. Many assume MW will become elite, but frankly I'd be happy with about 10 more years like he gave us last year. If Benn and Briscoe are each good wideouts (and by that I mean 700-800 yard category) I think that's enough to make our offense a top-10 one consistently.

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Booker Reese

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#16 : January 04, 2011, 02:23:43 PM

huh?

I wouldn't trade Freeman for anybody, but I don't think there's anything in there that's a jab at Freeman.

The problem with the whole analysis is the arbitrary 4,000 yards target. That's why you see guys like Schaub up there where they shouldn't be.

ryan24

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#17 : January 04, 2011, 02:24:40 PM

This is going to affect how good any of these QBs in what way?

Too many get too emotionally involved in what a writer writes as his opinion and take what they write too personally to the point in which they overblow facets of what the writer writes.

Happy and Peppy and Bursting with love.

Snook

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#18 : January 04, 2011, 02:26:08 PM

Someone needs to look up the definition of the word "elite".....  "representing the most choice or select; best"

12 of 32 quarterbacks can't be the "best".  That doesn't make any sense and it actually dilutes the idea of any QB being "elite". 

There's only 4 QBs who are "elite" in my opinion... Brady, Manning, Brees, and Roethlisberger. 

You can't be elite without a Super Bowl ring in my opinion, either.  Much less a playoff win.

I've got a SERIOUS problem with Schaub, Rodgers and Ryan being in the elite list.   Win at least ONE playoff game first.  Then we'll talk.

Its ABSURD to put anyone in the same group as Brady, Manning and Brees.

Laughable.   


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#19 : January 04, 2011, 02:40:54 PM

huh?

I wouldn't trade Freeman for anybody, but I don't think there's anything in there that's a jab at Freeman.

The problem with the whole analysis is the arbitrary 4,000 yards target. That's why you see guys like Schaub up there where they shouldn't be.

I agree 100% on the 4,000 yards passing.  4,000 yards passing has absolutely nothing to do with being an elite QB.  In many cases it can be indicitive of a pretty good QB being on a team with a pretty bad D.  I believe Big Ben has only thrown for over 4,000 yds. once, but he has 2 rings, and gets better in the playoffs.  Brady has only thrown for over 4,000 yds. three times, and he has been as clutch as they come in the playoffs.

Elite QBs need to efficient, make good decisions, and take care of the ball.  They also need to get better in the playoffs and be able to lead their team to 4th qtr. comebacks which is directly related to being clutch.  Schaub, Rodgers, Ryan, QBs like that are great for fantasy football, but I want W's, W's in the playoffs, and clutch plays when the game is on the line and the team is counting on the QB and only the QB to make the play.

I wouldn't say Freeman is an elite QB at this point, but it looks like he has all the tools to be one.  He needs to have more years like this year, he needs to lead the Bucs to the playoffs and notch a few wins, and he needs to keep showing that he is clutch.

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#20 : January 04, 2011, 02:43:03 PM

I put Free above Cutler. THANK GOD we didn't trade (I was hoping for it) for Cutler. Guy just doesn't know when to throw it away. He couldn't get it done against GB and Ryan couldn't get it done against NO. Free is very close to Ryan when it comes to ranking.

Next year can't get here soon enough. Remember in the movie "Sleeper" how he woke up and his rent was 2000 years overdue? Well, wrap me in that tin foil and wake me up when the 2011 season starts. I'll wake up for draft day but that's it.

jerseybucsfan

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#21 : January 04, 2011, 02:43:49 PM

That's fair, Snook.
My top four would be Brady, Peyton M., Brees and Rivers, though. However, if you want to add Ben to that list, it's tough to argue against.
That said, Eli won one, but that is looking more and more like the exception than the rule to his career.
Sorry Ryan. IMHO Freeman is one of the top 12 QBs in the NFL. He uses Freeman as the cutoff and statistically anyway Freeman was way ahead of all those on the same tier.

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jerseybucsfan

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#22 : January 04, 2011, 02:45:07 PM

Watchman, is he top 12?

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Garv

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#23 : January 04, 2011, 02:46:24 PM

Someone needs to look up the definition of the word "elite".....  "representing the most choice or select; best"

12 of 32 quarterbacks can't be the "best".  That doesn't make any sense and it actually dilutes the idea of any QB being "elite". 

There's only 4 QBs who are "elite" in my opinion... Brady, Manning, Brees, and Roethlisberger. 

You can't be elite without a Super Bowl ring in my opinion, either.  Much less a playoff win.

I've got a SERIOUS problem with Schaub, Rodgers and Ryan being in the elite list.   Win at least ONE playoff game first.  Then we'll talk.

Its ABSURD to put anyone in the same group as Brady, Manning and Brees.

Laughable.

I realize a lot of this is semantics but as this is a message board and the season is over
for our Buccaneers..........
IMO Manning, Brady and Brees are "elite." I would not put Ben in that category. Those three are simply far better
and can do more with less than he can IMO. Just my opinion.
As for not being "elite" without winning a Super Bowl? Two words........Dan Marino.
I find it hard to argue that. Dan Fouts as well. Look at the numbers and the wins. I think you have to.

But when you type later that "it's ABSURD to put anyone in the same group as Brady, Manning and Brees?"
I certainly agree with you, absolutely.

But I STILL would not trade Josh Freeman for any of them today. For any other QB in the NFL.
And you know what? THAT'S INCREDIBLE!!! I assure you as a fan since the beginning. There has NEVER been
another time when I could type that.

We are all here because we are NOT all there.....
As always, GO BUCS!!!

ufojoe

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#24 : January 04, 2011, 02:49:17 PM

The Crypt Keeper is good at breaking NEWS

He's really not even good at that anymore.  Schefter, Glazer, Lombardi, Mortensen, and even La Canfora out-scoop him pretty regularly.

He's pretty worthless as far as football reporters go.

Yeah but he keeps the ladies watching with his good looks.

jerseybucsfan

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#25 : January 04, 2011, 02:52:43 PM

Garv, sadly you are right.
Doug Williams 1979-82 (at his peak): Never thought that. There were probably at least five QBs I would have selected first. By the time Montana came into his own that number grew.
Steve Young: Never got to see his best in Tampa Bay. Never an issue, though it should have been.
Trent Dilfer: Showed signs in 1997, but at best he was in the argument for the top 10 QBs in the NFL. More realistically, he was average to below average.
Shaun King: With the exception of MNF 2000, I never saw him as a top 15 QB.
Brad: Great 2002, but too old by that point to make this claim. And with Peyton and Brady, it would have been laughable.
So yes, Freeman holds a very special place in Bucs QB distinction.

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Snook

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#26 : January 04, 2011, 03:00:07 PM

Someone needs to look up the definition of the word "elite".....  "representing the most choice or select; best"

12 of 32 quarterbacks can't be the "best".  That doesn't make any sense and it actually dilutes the idea of any QB being "elite". 

There's only 4 QBs who are "elite" in my opinion... Brady, Manning, Brees, and Roethlisberger. 

You can't be elite without a Super Bowl ring in my opinion, either.  Much less a playoff win.

I've got a SERIOUS problem with Schaub, Rodgers and Ryan being in the elite list.   Win at least ONE playoff game first.  Then we'll talk.

Its ABSURD to put anyone in the same group as Brady, Manning and Brees.

Laughable.

I realize a lot of this is semantics but as this is a message board and the season is over
for our Buccaneers..........
IMO Manning, Brady and Brees are "elite." I would not put Ben in that category. Those three are simply far better
and can do more with less than he can IMO. Just my opinion.
As for not being "elite" without winning a Super Bowl? Two words........Dan Marino.
I find it hard to argue that. Dan Fouts as well. Look at the numbers and the wins. I think you have to.

But when you type later that "it's ABSURD to put anyone in the same group as Brady, Manning and Brees?"
I certainly agree with you, absolutely.

But I STILL would not trade Josh Freeman for any of them today. For any other QB in the NFL.
And you know what? THAT'S INCREDIBLE!!! I assure you as a fan since the beginning. There has NEVER been
another time when I could type that.


I figured someone would bring up the Marino argument.  And I understand that.  And kindly disagree. 

Marino was great.  But not ever winning a ring takes a lot away from his career, in my opinion.

Still can't figure out why Ryan is "elite".  Never passed for 4000 yards in career.  ZERO playoffs wins.   Can't figure out why so many people mark out to that guy.  He has no fire.  He's a robot.  I'd take Freeman over Ryan ALL DAY LONG. 

My definition of "elite" would include ALL of these checkmarks -- Playoff wins, Rings,  Consistent top 10 stats.

I have to put Big Ben in the "elite" status.  The guy has 2 rings in 5 season.  And he makes plays under pressure.  That TD pass to win the Super Bowl was SICK. 


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#27 : January 04, 2011, 03:07:08 PM

Watchman, is he top 12?

Don't know, don't care.

He's light years ahead of where I thought he would be.  He has all the physical tools you could want in a QB.  This year he proved that he could make good decisions and take care of the ball.  Most importantly - this year he showed then when the team needed him and only him to make a play to keep a drive alive, or get a W, he could do that.

QB's become elite in the playoffs.  Schaub, Rodgers, Ryan - these guys aren't elite QBs.  Manning, Brady, Brees, Big Ben - those are the only elite QBs in the NFL in my opinion.

There isn't another young QB in the league that I would take over Freeman, but I'm sure ATL, BAL, STL, and NYJ fans all feel the same way about their guys.

Snook

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#28 : January 04, 2011, 03:11:25 PM

Watchman, is he top 12?

Don't know, don't care.

He's light years ahead of where I thought he would be.  He has all the physical tools you could want in a QB.  This year he proved that he could make good decisions and take care of the ball.  Most importantly - this year he showed then when the team needed him and only him to make a play to keep a drive alive, or get a W, he could do that.

QB's become elite in the playoffs.  Schaub, Rodgers, Ryan - these guys aren't elite QBs.  Manning, Brady, Brees, Big Ben - those are the only elite QBs in the NFL in my opinion.

There isn't another young QB in the league that I would take over Freeman, but I'm sure ATL, BAL, STL, and NYJ fans all feel the same way about their guys.

Good post.

None of this really matters in the end.  The fact that there's actually a thread discussing whether or not the quarterback of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers is "elite" or not, is exciting enough.

Freeman is ours.  For a long time. 

Fantastic, isn't it?

LOVE IT.  We're so lucky to have #5.


ufojoe

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#29 : January 04, 2011, 03:14:06 PM

There isn't another young QB in the league that I would take over Freeman, but I'm sure ATL, BAL, STL, and NYJ fans all feel the same way about their guys.

Not so sure about Jets fans. They always have their doubts. And rightfully so.

Ryan still hasn't learned to shut his mouth.
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