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jerseybucsfan

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#30 : January 22, 2011, 01:52:14 PM

Why do I sound like Cyber, Joe, because I'm not a pollyanna? Sorry. I loved this season. I loved the guys we brought in. But I'm keeping it real.
What bothers me is people who feel they have to put down Gruden or ANYTHING from 2003-2008 in order to boost up what's happening now. I'm glad we got Raheem, but you understand that if we had changed direction sooner things might not have worked out as well as they did. Or changed it later.
I'm content with when we got rid of Wyche, rid of Dungy, rid of Gruden. The part of Gruden that I defend are a Super Bowl (our only one) and three division titles. I think one can be positive about our last two coaches and STILL be positive about where we're going.
If you really want to be optimistic, understand that this could be the best AND longest run of excellence. But I want more people to enjoy it. I want RayJay full. I don't enjoy national writers mocking our empty seats. I want the local media to go away (except for PR). And I want fans to talk it up and get other fans into it.... NOT to dump all over people who loved this guy or that guy.
There's too much of a vortex of malice within this fanbase, win or lose. Too much of that unnecessarily ruins the experience of winning. And I want to enjoy ALL of it.
I think we have all put in the time and commitment to merit all of that.

In Verner We Trust

Hate

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#31 : January 22, 2011, 01:54:57 PM

If you really want to be optimistic, understand that this could be the best AND longest run of excellence. But I want more people to enjoy it. I want RayJay full. I don't enjoy national writers mocking our empty seats. I want the local media to go away (except for PR). And I want fans to talk it up and get other fans into it.... NOT to dump all over people who loved this guy or that guy.
There's too much of a vortex of malice within this fanbase, win or lose. Too much of that unnecessarily ruins the experience of winning. And I want to enjoy ALL of it.
I think we have all put in the time and commitment to merit all of that.

You can't force bandwagoners to embrace this team. They'll do so when its fashionable. Thats how this area is.

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 I thought Lovie said he wanted quickness & speed, even at the QB position?

jerseybucsfan

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#32 : January 22, 2011, 02:15:44 PM

If you really want to be optimistic, understand that this could be the best AND longest run of excellence. But I want more people to enjoy it. I want RayJay full. I don't enjoy national writers mocking our empty seats. I want the local media to go away (except for PR). And I want fans to talk it up and get other fans into it.... NOT to dump all over people who loved this guy or that guy.
There's too much of a vortex of malice within this fanbase, win or lose. Too much of that unnecessarily ruins the experience of winning. And I want to enjoy ALL of it.
I think we have all put in the time and commitment to merit all of that.

You can't force bandwagoners to embrace this team. They'll do so when its fashionable. Thats how this area is.
IT"LL HAPPEN IN WEEK 6 2011 WHEN WE BEAT GREEN BAY ON MNF. THE NIGHT MR. RODGERS STEPS INTO THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF PAIN.

In Verner We Trust

dbucfan

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#33 : January 22, 2011, 02:17:49 PM

Why do I sound like Cyber, Joe, because I'm not a pollyanna? Sorry. I loved this season. I loved the guys we brought in. But I'm keeping it real.
What bothers me is people who feel they have to put down Gruden or ANYTHING from 2003-2008 in order to boost up what's happening now. I'm glad we got Raheem, but you understand that if we had changed direction sooner things might not have worked out as well as they did. Or changed it later.
I'm content with when we got rid of Wyche, rid of Dungy, rid of Gruden. The part of Gruden that I defend are a Super Bowl (our only one) and three division titles. I think one can be positive about our last two coaches and STILL be positive about where we're going.
If you really want to be optimistic, understand that this could be the best AND longest run of excellence. But I want more people to enjoy it. I want RayJay full. I don't enjoy national writers mocking our empty seats. I want the local media to go away (except for PR). And I want fans to talk it up and get other fans into it.... NOT to dump all over people who loved this guy or that guy.
There's too much of a vortex of malice within this fanbase, win or lose. Too much of that unnecessarily ruins the experience of winning. And I want to enjoy ALL of it.
I think we have all put in the time and commitment to merit all of that.

You don't sound like Cyber - UFOJoe is wrong.  You sound realistic - and likely Hate would agree with you - regarding seeing how the team would progress - if given a chance.

Now the votex of malice - while a nice turn of a phrase - is a tad of an overstatement imvho - just some folks who like to argue - not discuss - argue.  Enjoyed your posts - hang in there.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

Benchwarmer#1

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#34 : January 22, 2011, 02:25:57 PM

Luck.

Honestly, I'd LOVE to say "hey, the Glazers did the right thing." However, they went "*cheap" and just got lucky.

They said it best when they said they didn't expect this turnaround. I'm glad this season happened and could actually care less who the owners are (I don't hate the team for what they do), but in no way am I going to say that the Glazer boys planned this. There are other teams that took the "cheap" route and they are still bottom-feeders. It all boils down to WHOM is doing the picking NOT the spending. An Dom has done a bang-up job. Not to mention, I get the feeling the team won in spite of the owners lack of help (no airtime at homegames. Even for ONE game). Even the Steelers game was not aired in the Tampa area, and there was even some weirdness going on in the Bucs ticket booth.


*Of course, we all know, the third pick in the draft is NOT cheap. They could've traded out IMO. ....It's all argumentative and speculative really.

Naismith was right about Revis. Everyone else is a dummy.

Chief Joseph

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#35 : January 22, 2011, 02:42:29 PM

It's the mark of someone who is letting their emotions interfere with their intellect.

This is fairly ironic.

Very well, Biggs, please explain how I'm letting my emotions interfere.

The whole "bottom half of the division" rationalization is a good start.  This completely ignores the fact that the team is in the top half of the league, and exposes an agenda.

You're right, I do have an agenda. I'm trying to get an accurate assessment of where the team is at. "Top half of the league" describes every team in the NFL that didn't have a losing record. The Bucs are at about average. If I had said last year that the Bucs would be an average team this year, that would have seemed like a very high, but still obtainable, goal to shoot for. Now, if I say the Bucs have reached that goal, I'm accused of having an anti-Buc agenda.

And aren't the Saints and Falcons "Over-hyped.... and over-rated?" If we're an upper echelon team, why did these "frauds" do better than we did? And yet this is the very logic I see being offered in predictions that the Bucs will have "a stranglehold on the division for the foreseeable future." See if you can follow along with the logic:
1. The Bucs are a good team but they're third in their division because they happen to have two elite teams in front of them.
2. Those teams are exposed as frauds who benefited from an easy schedule, and the evaluation of them drops. The evaluation of the Bucs, who played a similar schedule, stays the same.
3. Now the Bucs are as good as, nay, better, than those teams, and should dominate them for years to come.

Again, these are the type of arguments that are being made from emotion as opposed to logic. But on this board, if you oppose these distorted arguments it's taken as a personal attack and you're vilified as a troll.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

Biggs3535

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#36 : January 22, 2011, 03:14:40 PM

You're right, I do have an agenda. I'm trying to get an accurate assessment of where the team is at. "Top half of the league" describes every team in the NFL that didn't have a losing record. The Bucs are at about average. If I had said last year that the Bucs would be an average team this year, that would have seemed like a very high, but still obtainable, goal to shoot for. Now, if I say the Bucs have reached that goal, I'm accused of having an anti-Buc agenda.

Well yeah, that happens when you try to describe a 10-6 team as average.  8-8 is average, 10-6 is not.

The slant of "bottom half of their division" shows where you're at.  Of course, you failed to mention that there isn't another division in the NFL that has a team with 9 wins (much less 10 wins) in third place.


And aren't the Saints and Falcons "Over-hyped.... and over-rated?" If we're an upper echelon team, why did these "frauds" do better than we did? And yet this is the very logic I see being offered in predictions that the Bucs will have "a stranglehold on the division for the foreseeable future." See if you can follow along with the logic:
1. The Bucs are a good team but they're third in their division because they happen to have two elite teams in front of them.
2. Those teams are exposed as frauds who benefited from an easy schedule, and the evaluation of them drops. The evaluation of the Bucs, who played a similar schedule, stays the same.
3. Now the Bucs are as good as, nay, better, than those teams, and should dominate them for years to come.

Again, these are the type of arguments that are being made from emotion as opposed to logic. But on this board, if you oppose these distorted arguments it's taken as a personal attack and you're vilified as a troll.

These little nuggets of logic ignore the youth of Tampa, the age/Free Agents of New Orleans, and the distorted arguments of your own.


CyberDilemma

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#37 : January 22, 2011, 03:39:56 PM

And aren't the Saints and Falcons "Over-hyped.... and over-rated?" If we're an upper echelon team, why did these "frauds" do better than we did?.


I don't know that you can say the Saints are over-rated. They are the defending Super Bowl Champs. That speaks for itself. They ARE a good team. They just happened to get struck by the injury bug and the Super Bowl hangover at the same time. Now Atlanta, their season very much played out just like the 2001 Bears who went 13-3. In other words, they seemed to catch every lucky break and bounce. I don't think they will come crashing down to reality like the Bears did the season after that because the Falcons are a decent team with a good, young QB and an elite receiver, but I do not put the Falcons in the perennial contender category like the Steelers or Patriots. The Bucs are what they are, a very young team with some promising talent that appears to be on the upswing. How it all eventually plays out only time will tell. Does Morris have what it takes to guide the team to another Super Bowl win or will he be another Dungy, who was great at finding and developing young talent but not capable of getting them over the top? Regardless, you have to be excited about the future. I can see being pessimistic about a team of aged vets who are being held together through patchwork for one last hurrah, but, when you have the youngest team in the league and they are showing the athleticism, the work ethic, the fight and the determination that these young Bucs are, then I cannot see how you can be anything other than curious and excited about how this all will play out. Put your cynicism aside and enjoy the ride for a while.

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#38 : January 22, 2011, 03:47:33 PM

Well yeah, that happens when you try to describe a 10-6 team as average.  8-8 is average, 10-6 is not.

Because the NFL had a large separation between the haves and have nots this year, both of the 8-8 teams finished in the 'top half of the league.'  With the benefit of a schedule that featured fewer haves than have nots, the Bucs finished two spots above those teams. Right where you would expect an average team that played more poor teams than good teams to finish at.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

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#39 : January 22, 2011, 03:55:28 PM

Put your cynicism aside and enjoy the ride for a while.

For me, enjoying the ride doesn't require that I retain a blindly optimistic viewpoint. And I didn't say the Saints were overrated, all of those arguments I pointed out were made by "Hate" in regards to the Falcons.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

cyberdude558

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#40 : January 22, 2011, 04:05:54 PM

What if the Titans never released Blount or what if another team picked him off waivers before we did? You will not convince me that Dominik's plan all along was to draft a punter in round 6 (who never survives to week 2) and wait and find a franchise RB off the waiver wire. That's luck right there. A lot of luck! Same with Mike Williams. There was no assurances he was still going to be there in round 4. That was luck that he slipped that far and apparently Dominik never wanted to draft him before round 4.

If just a few things like that went a different way, the team could look terrible right now. We have to wait a few years to properly evaluate these draft picks. Now Freeman was obviously part of their plan all along. And if he continues to look good, Dominik and Morris get a cookie for that draft pick. But the jury is still out on McCoy, Price, Benn and Lewis. And Dominik will need another fantastic draft this year to fill the huge holes we have at DE, LB, and OL that they are refusing to fill via free agency. So the luck needs to continue. A few busts could derail this thing pretty quickly.

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#41 : January 22, 2011, 04:36:35 PM

Well yeah, that happens when you try to describe a 10-6 team as average.  8-8 is average, 10-6 is not.

Because the NFL had a large separation between the haves and have nots this year, both of the 8-8 teams finished in the 'top half of the league.'  With the benefit of a schedule that featured fewer haves than have nots, the Bucs finished two spots above those teams. Right where you would expect an average team that played more poor teams than good teams to finish at.

Using this logic, the Saints were also average since their SOS was weaker and they won one more (11-5) game than the Bucs.
Using this logic, the Detroit, Washington, Dallas, Houston, Minnesota, & Tennessee were also average since their SOS was stronger and they lost 4 more (6-10) games than the Bucs.

An honest evaluation of the team looks like the last thing you are looking for when you make agenda-driven statements like this.


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#42 : January 22, 2011, 05:21:49 PM

Luck.

Honestly, I'd LOVE to say "hey, the Glazers did the right thing." However, they went "*cheap" and just got lucky.

How can they be cheap when it cost them money to make the move they made? A cheap ownership would have stayed the course... not paid guys to go away. I cheap ownership wouldn't have been so adamant about investing a high pick(and the bonus that goes with it) in a QB. A cheap ownership doesn't make Faine the highest paid center in the league or allow Dom to hand so much $$ to K2 as soon as he arrives. A cheap ownership doesn't cave to Penn's contract demands.

Just because they aren't wasteful doesn't make them cheap.... not in this fan's eyes.

-------------------------------------------------------
   

 I thought Lovie said he wanted quickness & speed, even at the QB position?

CyberDilemma

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#43 : January 22, 2011, 05:24:23 PM

You will not convince me that Dominik's plan all along was to draft a punter in round 6 (who never survives to week 2) and wait and find a franchise RB off the waiver wire. That's luck right there. A lot of luck! Same with Mike Williams. There was no assurances he was still going to be there in round 4. That was luck that he slipped that far and apparently Dominik never wanted to draft him before round 4.



Luck is when opportunity meets preparation. The big difference is that the Bucs are now doing their diligent homework so that when opportunity strikes they actually see it and capitalize on it. That's all you can ask for. Every outcome in life could have different results if you want to play the "what if" game. It's senseless.

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#44 : January 22, 2011, 05:24:54 PM

What if the Titans never released Blount or what if another team picked him off waivers before we did? You will not convince me that Dominik's plan all along was to draft a punter in round 6 (who never survives to week 2) and wait and find a franchise RB off the waiver wire. That's luck right there. A lot of luck! Same with Mike Williams. There was no assurances he was still going to be there in round 4. That was luck that he slipped that far and apparently Dominik never wanted to draft him before round 4.

Again, i ask.... why not deal in WHAT IS instead of WHAT IF?

-------------------------------------------------------
   

 I thought Lovie said he wanted quickness & speed, even at the QB position?
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