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jeanclaud

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#135 : February 14, 2011, 09:59:48 PM

Is everyone reading the same posts that I am? I feel there is a massive miscommunication going on.

Me, personally, I would never say that the 40 is a useless metric for defensive lineman. However, I did and will continue to say that it is now massively overrated for reasons that I made clear in earlier posts. IF a D-lineman runs a 5.0+ 40, that raises questions about his overall athleticism, his work ethic in preparing for something important like the combine, etc. However, if a D-lineman runs a 4.7 or a 4.8, this is NOT proof that they won't produce in the NFL as a pass rusher or in any other way.

I'm not going to overly defend JDub. He can handle himself. But I do think that in context all he's done is state that 40 yard dash result is incredibly less important that short area drills. I continue to agree.

White Tiger however has repeatedly said, concretely, that if a RDE doesn't run a fast 40 yard dash then that player won't be good. That's about as unbending as you can get.

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#136 : February 14, 2011, 10:43:28 PM

Donte Moch runs a 4.3  I guess we should take him at 20 since he's obviously great. I mean he runs fast in track n field. He must be great.
Sometimes when seeking to make a point, we make a decision to go past reasonable parameters.  Then we risk making ourselves look unbending and perhaps risk losing the opportunity for conversation on the boards.   It isn't all about agreeing Jdub.  Just wanted to point that out.

I find it almost impossibly ironic that you're quoting JDub with your response instead of White Tiger, who seems to have an obsession with the 40 yard dash.

Because WT didn't say that the 40 was all that matters, while JD said the 40 was irrelevant.  One is an extreme, while the other isn't.

White Tiger has said....

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jeanclaude - I'd take a Tuck-clone in a heartbeat - his typical 40 yard dash was 4.62, (although he ran one in 4.56)

until Watt runs a 40 yd dash in the 4.60's

JJ Watt would have to move in the 4.60's to shoot up the boards.

The 40 time at RDE in OUR defense is critical

that is why the 40 time is extrememly important

the only way JJ Watt is worth a look for THIS defense is if he runs the 40 in the 4.60's.

....but I'm the one being extreme? The 40 isn't irrelevant. Every thing at the combine has purpose and can tell you a lot about a prospect. All I'm saying is a 40 yard dash time is way down the list on what makes a great DE. White Tiger seems to think it's the most important thing. I find that hilarious. He's also stated several times that if a DE doesn't run a good forty then he is a big, slow, hunk of granite.

Bottom line is if you have two defensive linemen that both have 1.5 at the ten yard mark, both have 2.6 at the 20 yard mark but one has 4.5 at the forty and one has 4.7 at the forty....it means nothing. That is how I see it. White Tiger doesn't have to agree. He's the one challenging everyone to name a great DE that didn't ahve a great 40 time like it's the most important thing. I'm not challenging anyone to prove anything.
: February 14, 2011, 10:50:02 PM JDouble

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#137 : February 15, 2011, 12:42:55 AM

No, as I spent a lot of time showing you - 40 times don't mean a lot for teams that work from a base 3-4 defensive alignment - as pointed out, this is NOT our defensive alignment.

For teams that work from a base 4-3 defensive alignment - as our Buccaneers do - 40 times are incredibly important.

I'm sorry - it simply isn't going to change no matter how many times you try to scream the other way. I have tried to understand, when I thought I found a mistake I tried to educate, now I'm simply irritated that you think you can somehow spin this into a "White Tiger's a meany" debate....?

It's not a debate. Unless the big guy (JJ Watt or Adrian Clayborn) runs a 40 in the 4.60's - the Bucs won't take him and don't need him - for the RDE.

We're only talking about what to do with the first round draft pick - if we do select a big, slow, phat guy at DE - he will play LDE and we don't draft those guys real high.
: February 15, 2011, 12:45:52 AM The White Tiger

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#138 : February 15, 2011, 12:56:14 AM

You're right. It's not a debate. I already stated several times that you don't need to agree with me, I'm not asking you to prove anything to me. You are free to believe whatever you want and I am free to believe it's complete nonsense.

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#139 : February 15, 2011, 01:45:38 AM

...sorry for confusing you with the facts jdub, I didn't know your mind was already made up.


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#140 : February 15, 2011, 03:27:56 AM

Since you couldn't accept me letting you off graciously - I just felt a finer point needed to be put on this once and for all - so I went back and addressed a detailed list of suggestions for the type of Defensive End you thought the Bucs should go after - and when I finished the calculations, I found that you agree with me 100%.

That in itself is not shocking, the idea that you've wasted multiple posts without doing any research and simply keep repeating how right you are and how crazy anyone is for arguing with you, - so, please, enjoy:

Me on the other hand, I realize that if you go with undersized guys that could be 3-4 LBs ...then yes, they will use speed almost entirely to get the job done and a 40 time is somewhat important. If you get guys like Darnell Dockett (6-4 290lbs) Will Smith (6-3 282lbs) Mario Williams (6-6 295lbs) Justin Smith (6-4 285lbs) Jared Allen (6-6 274lbs) you get guys that use strength and technique to get the QB more so than straight line speed and a 40 time means nothing. These bigger guys are also better against the run and therefore I think a better option.

Darnell Docket? Who in their right mind would want Darnell Docket (6' 4", 290 lbs - 4.84 40 yd)? So, basically, you want guys like...Stylz G White (6' 3", 270 - 4.86 40 yd dash in '02)? Well, lets see...Darnell's been in the league 7 years, and he's had 31 sacks - that's a 4.4 sack average. Stylz G has finished 4 seasons and has 24.5 sacks - that's an average of about 6 sacks per year...

Now, here's where it gets interesting - for me (not so much for you)...

Will Smith (6' 3", 282 lbs) ran a 4.60 40. He plays DE in a 4-3 defense.

Mario Williams (6-6, 295 lbs) ran a 40 in 4.66. He plays DE in a 3-4

Justin Smith (6-4, 285 lbs) ran a 4.64 (and reportedly a 4.55) he played in a 3-4 in Cincy & San Fran.

Jared Allen (6-6, 274 lbs) already posted - but duplicated because it solidifies my point - ran a 4.67 40 yard dash and he plays in a 4-3 base.

I can see what you want - you want to imagine JJ Watt will be able to play like Jared Allen and Reggie White - but you want him to do it with the speed of Stylz G and Darnell Docket (it still blows me away - Darnell-freakin-Docket)?

Only Jared Allen (Idaho State) and ironically Darnell Dockett (Darnell-freakin-docket?) were NOT 1st round draft picks (in case you forgot - that's what we're talking about).

JJ Watt is NOT Reggie White, nor is he any of the other people on your list - but he is beginning to resemble Styz G and Darnell Docket...

Like I said - he can be big, he can be strong - but he better be fast - first.
: February 15, 2011, 03:35:02 AM The White Tiger

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