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Chief Joseph

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#45 : February 17, 2011, 09:23:10 PM

John 3:16 (Contemporary English Version)
"God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die."

"Everyone who has faith in him" seems to be substantially different than TRUE Christians only.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.



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#46 : February 17, 2011, 09:41:22 PM

John 3:16 (Contemporary English Version)
"God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die."

"Everyone who has faith in him" seems to be substantially different than TRUE Christians only.

True faith, real faith & exercising that faith = true Christian.

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#47 : February 17, 2011, 09:54:54 PM

^^great post. Just read the Bible and let God's word be. But some "Christians" use elaborate explainations to make their ridiculous convoluted doctrine plausable when the truth is right in front of their nose. The truth shall set you free...
It is hilarious to listen to them try to explain Jesus last words..."Father why have you forsaken me?"
Why Jehovah spoke from heaven when Jesus was finished being baptized "this is my son the beloved"
Why Jesus said I was sent and did not come of my own initiative
Why Jesus stated his Father in heaven knew when the end would come but he did not
Why no man may ever see God's face
How God cannot be tried by evil (Jesus was tried)
Man cannot ever kill God

it goes on and on....

and all they (Trinitarians) have is John 1:1, and a "feeling" you get when God splits you away from your flesh...(huh?)
: February 17, 2011, 09:57:57 PM OneTruth



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#48 : February 17, 2011, 10:48:51 PM

^^great post. Just read the Bible and let God's word be. But some "Christians" use elaborate explainations to make their ridiculous convoluted doctrine plausable when the truth is right in front of their nose. The truth shall set you free...
It is hilarious to listen to them try to explain Jesus last words..."Father why have you forsaken me?"
Why Jehovah spoke from heaven when Jesus was finished being baptized "this is my son the beloved"
Why Jesus said I was sent and did not come of my own initiative
Why Jesus stated his Father in heaven knew when the end would come but he did not
Why no man may ever see God's face
How God cannot be tried by evil (Jesus was tried)
Man cannot ever kill God

it goes on and on....

and all they (Trinitarians) have is John 1:1, and a "feeling" you get when God splits you away from your flesh...(huh?)

.........not to mention 1 Cor 11:3.

Colossians chapter 1, in context, clearly states that Christ was created.

John 1:1 should read "....and the Word was a god" 

Greek grammar of that period (1st century) doesn't translate this very well into English. However, the Sahidic Coptic text of the 3rd century is very close to English grammar and it clearly says   ".....a god". Jesus clearly is a god, but not Almighty God. Note that the Trinity doctrine wasn't adopted by Christendom until the 4th century.

The Trinity has roots in ancient Babylonian pagan worship.

Even this site realizes that the Trinity is a false teaching:

Quote

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/trinity.html

The origins of the Trinity doctrine are appalling. Like most historic issues pertaining to Christianity, there was much deceit and bloodshed. Many lives were lost before 'Trinitarianism' was finally adopted.

As many Christians know, the word "trinity" does not appear in the Bible. It doesn't because it is a doctrine which evolved in early Christianity. It was a manipulated, bloody and deadly process before it finally arrived as an 'accepted' doctrine of the church.

CONSTANTINE - THE TRINITY PROCESS BEGINS

Flavius Valerius Constantius (c. 285-337 AD), Constantine the Great, was the son of Emperor Constantius I. When his father died in 306 AD, Constantine became emperor of Britain, Gaul (now France), and Spain. Gradually he gained control of the entire Roman empire.

Theological differences regarding Jesus Christ began to manifest in Constantine's empire when two major opponents surfaced and debated whether Christ was a created being (Arius doctrine) or not created but rather coequal and coeternal to God his father (Athanasius doctrine).

The theological warfare between the Arius and Athanasius doctrinal camps became intense. Constantine realized that the his empire was being threatened by the doctrinal rift. Constantine began to pressure the church to come to terms with its differences before the results became disastrous to his empire. Finally the emperor called a council at Nicea in 325 AD to resolve the dispute.

Only a fraction of existing bishops, 318, attended. This equated to about 18% of all the bishops in the empire. Of the 318, approximately 10 were from the Western part of Constantine's empire, making the voting lopsided at best. The emperor manipulated, coerced and threatened the council to be sure it voted for what he believed rather than an actual consensus of the bishops.

The present day Christian church touts Constantine as the first Christian emperor, however, his 'Christianity' was politically motivated. Whether he personally accepted Christian doctrine is highly doubtful. He had one of his sons murdered in addition to a nephew, his brother in law and possibly one of his wives. He continued to retain his title of high priest in a pagan religion until his death. He was not baptized until he was on his deathbed.

THE FIRST TWO THIRDS OF THE TRINITY - THE NICAEAN CREED

The majority of bishops voted under pressure from Constantine for the Athanasius doctrine. A creed was adopted which favored Athanasius's theology. Arius was condemned and exiled. Several of the Bishops left before the voting to avoid the controversy. Jesus Christ was approved to be "one substance" with God the Father. It is interesting that even now, the Eastern and Western Orthodox churches disagree with each other regarding this doctrine, the Western churches having had no influence in the 'voting'.

Two of the bishops who voted pro-Arius were also exiled and Arius's writings were destroyed. Constantine decreed that anyone caught with Arius documents would be subject to the death penalty.

The Nicaean Creed read as follows:

        I believe in one God: the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

        And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God: begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made. . .

Even with the adoption of the Nicaean Creed, problems continued and in a few years, the Arian faction began to regain control. They became so powerful that Constantine restored them and denounced the Athanasius group.

Arius's exile was ended along with the bishops who sided with him. It was now Athanasius who would be banished.

When Constantine died (after being baptized by an Arian Bishop), his son reinstated the Arian philosophy and bishops and condemned the Athanasius group.

In the following years the political foes continue to struggle and finally the Arians misused their power and were overthrown. The religious/political controversy caused widespread bloodshed and killing. In 381 AD, Emperor Theodosius (a Trinitarian) convened a council in Constantinople. Only Trinitarian bishops were invited to attend. 150 bishops attended and voted to alter the Nicene creed to include the Holy Spirit as a part of the Godhead. The Trinity doctrine was now official for both the church and the state.

Dissident bishops were expelled from the church, and excommunicated.

THE ATHANASIUS CREED COMPLETES THE TRIUNE GODHEAD

The Athanasius (Trinitarian) Creed was finally established in (probably) the 5th century. It was not written by Athanasius but adopted his name. It stated in part:

        "We worship one God in Trinity . . . The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three gods, but one God."

By the 9th century the creed was established in Spain, France and Germany. It had taken centuries from the time of Christ for the trinity doctrine to catch on. Government and church politics were the reasons the trinity came into existence and became church orthodoxy.

As you have seen, the Trinitarian doctrine came from deceit, politics, a pagan emperor and warring factions who brought about death and bloodshed.     

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#49 : February 17, 2011, 10:58:30 PM

John 3:16 (Contemporary English Version)
"God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die."

"Everyone who has faith in him" seems to be substantially different than TRUE Christians only.

Yes Light bearer, it's this^^^ you get the concept dead-on.

When man sets up qualifications, extra steps, etc., it makes man the one who decides the acceptability of the spirit side of our being - man becomes the arbiter of faith. Christ said what he meant, and he meant what he said - he did not equivocate.

Paul was a lawyer, he laid it out the case like a legal argument - read the 8th chapter of Romans, I'm thinking of verse 15: "...For you did not recieve the spirit of bondage to fear (afraid you didn't get it right, that there may be more), but you recieved the spirit of adoption whereby we cry abba, father..."

Then a little further on in verses 33 & 34 it states: "...Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies; who is he that condemns (Gods elect)? It is Christ Jesus that died, actually, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand ("right hand" symbolizes justice) of God, who also makes intercession for us (Christians)..."

It is not for us to judge whether any here on Earth are Christians - but we make ourselves known by the things that are evidenced in our lives.

and if you really want it drilled down tightly, try the 9th chapter of Romans versus 31 - 33:

"...but Israel, following after the law of righteousness, did not arrive at (that) law. Why? Because they sought it not by faith but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is wrtten, 'Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence: And he that believeth on him (Jesus) shall not be put to shame..."

Man deliberately seeks to qualify the faith of a Christian - asserts that man is capable of doing something to contribute to the state of justification with God - because God made it obvious, anyone making it murky constantly stumbles over it.

It's that simple. I find it illogical that God would provide a clear process for reconciliation and restoration into his grace - and then leave it to men to qualify and certify which men have attained it. Man can only ever cause seperation/division - only God can reconcile.
: February 17, 2011, 11:00:01 PM The White Tiger

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#50 : February 18, 2011, 12:57:12 AM

I don't really see where the disconnect comes in to play for the Jehova's Witnesses other than they've been thoroughly indoctrinated to assert that Jesus and the Father are not one, because its all throughout scripture that they are.  Clearly, the Godhead is three seperate, distinct manifestations of the same divine life of God.  These attempts at pointing out that Jesus was seperate from God do not denote that He was not simultaneously one with God, even before the foundations of the earth.  He was part of the divine community even in Genesis.

In Isaiah, a messianic prophecy is given that states

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, Prince of Peace


Clearly this passage states that a son would be born for our sakes, and that He being the son, would simultaneously possess in full measure the life of the father, and would be God Himself. 


Matthew states:  The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us."

Shortly before His death Jesus prayed "...that they might be one (speaking of those that would be born into His kingdom after the day of pentecost)  even as you and I are ONE, I in you, and they in me.


Jesus stated to the Jews, "Before Abraham, I am" and was promptly targeted for stoning for blasphemy due to His saying that He was/is the I am of the scriptures.

As far as Jesus not coming of His own initiative, its clear from Jesus words that He did NOTHING of His own initiative, but did EVERYTHING in accordance with the will/initiative of the Father.  So again I don't see where the disconnect is in understanding that.

However, the truth is this, there is NO WAY anyone here or anywhere else for that matter is going to convince me of that doctrine, because everything that the Lord has worked in me and shown me over the years tells me that it is false.  (On top of all the scriptures that speak of Him being God)

And likewise, I'm sure, I'm not going to convince anyone here who has made up there mind to believe that Jesus was/is not God.  Its futility to try and convince the religious mind and its dogmatic doctrines of anything.  Only God can do that, and He does it through correction, chastisement, sifting, etc.  or in other words, through the deep cutting work of the cross and His dividing us between soul and spirit to break the stranglehold of our religious minds so He can bring us into a walk that is by His spirit, wherin we possess His mind, and cease living, as Paul said, like the heathen who live in the FUTILITY OF THEIR THINKING.





: February 18, 2011, 12:59:28 AM BucNative



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#51 : February 18, 2011, 01:44:09 AM

I don't really see where the disconnect comes in to play for the Jehova's Witnesses other than they've been thoroughly indoctrinated to assert that Jesus and the Father are not one, because its all throughout scripture that they are.  Clearly, the Godhead is three seperate, distinct manifestations of the same divine life of God.  These attempts at pointing out that Jesus was seperate from God do not denote that He was not simultaneously one with God, even before the foundations of the earth.  He was part of the divine community even in Genesis.

In Isaiah, a messianic prophecy is given that states

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, Prince of Peace


Clearly this passage states that a son would be born for our sakes, and that He being the son, would simultaneously possess in full measure the life of the father, and would be God Himself. 


Matthew states:  The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us."

Shortly before His death Jesus prayed "...that they might be one (speaking of those that would be born into His kingdom after the day of pentecost)  even as you and I are ONE, I in you, and they in me.


Jesus stated to the Jews, "Before Abraham, I am" and was promptly targeted for stoning for blasphemy due to His saying that He was/is the I am of the scriptures.

As far as Jesus not coming of His own initiative, its clear from Jesus words that He did NOTHING of His own initiative, but did EVERYTHING in accordance with the will/initiative of the Father.  So again I don't see where the disconnect is in understanding that.

However, the truth is this, there is NO WAY anyone here or anywhere else for that matter is going to convince me of that doctrine, because everything that the Lord has worked in me and shown me over the years tells me that it is false.  (On top of all the scriptures that speak of Him being God)

And likewise, I'm sure, I'm not going to convince anyone here who has made up there mind to believe that Jesus was/is not God.  Its futility to try and convince the religious mind and its dogmatic doctrines of anything.  Only God can do that, and He does it through correction, chastisement, sifting, etc.  or in other words, through the deep cutting work of the cross and His dividing us between soul and spirit to break the stranglehold of our religious minds so He can bring us into a walk that is by His spirit, wherin we possess His mind, and cease living, as Paul said, like the heathen who live in the FUTILITY OF THEIR THINKING.

Where does it say that the Holy Spirit is a person ?  Show us the scripture that says Trinity in the Bible.

Satan wants you to believe that the truth is unobtainable & that we really can't be sure how to obtain reconciliation with God. Remember, he's the one that challenged God's sovereignty in the Garden of Eden as well as man's motive for serving him (Job 2:4). God wouldn't leave man in such a lurch.

Quote
Matthew states:  The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us."

Jehu means 'Jehovah Is He'....was Jehu Jehovah God ?

Quote
Shortly before His death Jesus prayed "...that they might be one (speaking of those that would be born into His kingdom after the day of pentecost)  even as you and I are ONE, I in you, and they in me.

What's your point ? Jesus is saying he & his father are in unity (one) just as he and his disciples are in unity (one). So you're saying that Jesus disciples are also part of the Trinity ? Do you see how mixed up this doctrine is ?

Quote
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, Prince of Peace


Yes, Jesus is all of these that the titles express.

We have everlasting life by means of his ransom sacrifice, thus he is our Eternal Father.

Notice the scripture says "Mighty God" not "Almighty God".

Thanks for disproving the Trinity for us this evening.......

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#52 : February 18, 2011, 02:20:50 AM

Nichiren Daishonin would have put Jesus into the Gohonzon.
Just saying.




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#53 : February 18, 2011, 03:10:10 AM

Nichiren Daishonin would have put Jesus into the Gohonzon.
Just saying.

Hey Boid, how have you been ?

You know, it still boils down to truth. The sad part, aside from God being maligned, is that there are many sincere people in this world who are being mislead.

Again, distractions keep people from finding truth whether it be liberals & conservatives or Buddhists & Muslims. Satan sets up counterfeit kingdoms & religions. But according to Isaiah 9:6 (BucNative was kind enough to quote for us), Jehovah's kingdom (or government) was to rest on whose shoulders ? Not man's, not Satan's but on Christ Jesus' shoulders - & it's coming, maybe sooner than we many think.

Satan realizes that we were created with certain attributes like having spiritual needs & will stop at nothing to keep our mind off the single most important issue in the universe - Does our Creator have the right to rule us ? This issue will be settled.

1 John 4:1 (New Living Translation)
Discerning False Prophets
 "Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world."

Ecclesiastes 12:11-13 (The Message)
 "The words of the wise prod us to live well.
   They're like nails hammered home, holding life together.
   They are given by God, the one Shepherd.

   But regarding anything beyond this, dear friend, go easy. There's no end to the publishing of books, and constant study wears you out so you're no good for anything else. The last and final word is this:
   Fear God.
   Do what he tells you."

As far as qualifications for salvation & reconciliation, there is only ONE Creator & you are in no need for any man to tell you because he has clearly written it down in his word for all to read. Either believe it or believe everything else that deviates from the truth. As Jesus said, "your word is truth." - John 17:17

John 17:15-19 (Common English Bible)
" Im not asking that you take them out of this world but that you keep them safe from the evil one.  They dont belong to this world, just as I dont belong to this world.  Make them holy in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. I made myself holy on their behalf so that they also would be made holy in the truth."

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#54 : February 18, 2011, 06:17:19 AM

good stuff

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#55 : February 18, 2011, 10:48:12 AM


Satan wants you to believe that the truth is unobtainable & that we really can't be sure how to obtain reconciliation with God. Remember, he's the one that challenged God's sovereignty in the Garden of Eden as well as man's motive for serving him (Job 2:4). God wouldn't leave man in such a lurch.

I've already obtained reconciliation due to Christ's victory at the cross, and I've obtained the truth because when I came to HIm in surrender, He gave me the very divine nature of the Godhead that Christ died to bring us into.  So the life that is in me now is Christ, and that life continually draws me, and my attention upward to the high call of God in Christ Jesus

Quote
Matthew states:  The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us."

Jehu means 'Jehovah Is He'....was Jehu Jehovah God ?

Is Christ the chief cornerstone of the new creation or just a foreshadowing?  Jesus told the Pharisees, " You search the scriptures because you think by them you have life, but these are those that speak of me and yet you refuse to come to me to have life"   

Realize that when Jesus said this not one single piece of the new testament had been penned, so Jesus was speaking of the Old Testament scriptures.  In fact, nowhere in the Bible is the New Testatment referred to as scripture at all.  So Jehu as well as Adam, Moses, the Ark, the Sanctuary, Isaac, Jacob, the reeds that Jacob placed in front of the sheep, Boaz, Joshua, and over and over again, are all pictures of Christ.  Christ was the fulfillment of all of the OT scriptures, and the Kingdom of God that they all pointed to.

Quote
Shortly before His death Jesus prayed "...that they might be one (speaking of those that would be born into His kingdom after the day of pentecost)  even as you and I are ONE, I in you, and they in me.

What's your point ? Jesus is saying he & his father are in unity (one) just as he and his disciples are in unity (one). So you're saying that Jesus disciples are also part of the Trinity ? Do you see how mixed up this doctrine is ?



The disciples were not one at that time, but on the day of Pentecost, when Jesus sent the comforter that would speak not of HImself but would speak of Him (Christ), and His reconcilation work began its first functioning in the earth by imbuing those that believed with divine life, with the very nature of Heaven, THEN they possessed the life that made them one, and raised them up out of their desolate/dead natural life, a life born into a creation that is passing away due to its being judged at the garden, and seperated from God there, into new life, resurrection life, a life not of this world, but of heaven, and at that point they became (as we do when we are born again) part of Christ and are indeed seated in heavenly places with Him.

So now, when we think of God, we think rightly to think of the divine community as God the Father, Christ the Son, the Holy Spirit (comforter), and us.  So yes, the disciples as well as all that come to Him, have been made partakers of the very life that makes up  that community, and the nature of that life is unity/oneness.  We are one, even as they are one, Christ in the Father and us in Christ.

Quote
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, Prince of Peace


Yes, Jesus is all of these that the titles express.

We have everlasting life by means of his ransom sacrifice, thus he is our Eternal Father.

Notice the scripture says "Mighty God" not "Almighty God".

Thanks for disproving the Trinity for us this evening.......

Really?  This is semantics.

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#56 : February 18, 2011, 11:14:54 AM

God spoke to me last night, but I couldn't keep him on the line long enough to get a good trace on his deeper meaning. He is a wiley and clever one this God of mine, it gives me pause to reflect. 

\"The budget should be balanced; the treasury should be refilled; public debt should be reduced; and the arrogance of public officials should be controlled.\" -Cicero. 106-43 B.C.

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#57 : February 18, 2011, 11:26:29 AM

1 John 4:1 (New Living Translation)
Discerning False Prophets
 "Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world."

Heres the bugaboo, if you're going to test the spirits that others are operating by to know if they are true or false, you better be connected to the Lord who is the Truth.  You better have that inward spirit connection or else you'll BECOME a false prophet when you open your mouth and speak of the Lord yourself.
You test the spirits by being intimately aquainted with the Lord yourself, not because you've drenched your mind in religious dogma, because if thats all you've got, even if your doctrines are right, your constitution is wrong, and you will end up speaking falsehood because the only thing that can speak then, is the religious mind of man, and not the spirit of God.  And in all of creation there is nothing that God despises more, than the religious mind of man.  Religion is that thing in the earth that raises itself up as God, but is not God, and unless you know the Lord yourself, and cling to Him as He deals with YOUR religious mind, then you'll be led astray by it as you become puffed up in a sense of your own righteousness, instead of true righteousness, His righteousness.  Understanding this, and how serious it is to God, keeps us in a place of submission, because we all have that religious mind, and we have to see that it also has to be in submission to Him.  I belive this is a deep work of the Lord in us, to bring us to the place where He rips apart our dogmatic religious thinking to bring us into a true knowledge of Himself.

So the primary quesion is not "Does He have the right to rule us?" but the primary question becomes "Do I know Him?", and if I do know Him have I surrendered all.  Will I lay down my life, to walk in His life and to grow deeper into knowing Him more so that He may have his rightful place in the earth as Lord."  By the time you've come to that place, the question of whether or not He has the legal right to rule me has long been answered, because we wouldn't be considering those questions if we didn't already have an inward revelation of Him, and see that indeed He does have the right, and in fact won that right at the cross.

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#58 : February 18, 2011, 11:55:33 AM

God spoke to me last night, but I couldn't keep him on the line long enough to get a good trace on his deeper meaning.

He probably doesn't have a lot of free time on his hands, what with having to consult with his chosen people so they can relay to the rest of us what his wishes are.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

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#59 : February 18, 2011, 01:48:14 PM

God spoke to me last night, but I couldn't keep him on the line long enough to get a good trace on his deeper meaning.

He probably doesn't have a lot of free time on his hands, what with having to consult with his chosen people so they can relay to the rest of us what his wishes are.

I think it had more to do with the deeper meaning of American Idol being on....

\"The budget should be balanced; the treasury should be refilled; public debt should be reduced; and the arrogance of public officials should be controlled.\" -Cicero. 106-43 B.C.
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