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Handiman1031

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#30 : February 16, 2011, 12:47:51 PM

I don't think McCoy's contract or draft position should have any negative effect on where he is slotted along the DL.  It wasn't until recently that DTs started making around the same range as DEs anyway.

If Morris wants to appease the fans he will put McCoy in a position that best fits him, which IMO is LE and keep him there.  That is the best way for him to succeed.  Rep after rep at the same position.  He is a finesse DT, but out on the edge that works for him a lot better.  He can use his quickness and athleticism to beat the majority of RTs in the league.

Price and Okam are way better suited for the UT position in our defense and will take a lot of pressure off McCoy on the outside.  McCoy will enjoy a lot of one on ones with those two next to him.

I see a lot of people interested in guys like Adrian Clayborn.  Why take a guy like him to play LE when we have a better version in McCoy already rostered and being paid a ton of money.

If you look at players Millard's coached (http://www.coachmillard.com/Keith_Millard_Football_Academy/Players.html) to big sack totals you will find the majority of them being very close to McCoy's stature while playing at DE.  Reggie Hayward 6-5 280, Trevor Pryce 6-5 290, Bertrand Berry was closer to McCoy's size than his listed weight of 6-3 254 and most recently we saw McCoy's fellow draft mate Lamarr Houston play LE for the Raiders at 6-3 305 with 5 sacks this year.

To me the most bang for the Buc would be to have Millard put McCoy in the same LE position he helped all these guys reach successful numbers at and have Price who compares very favorably to Sapp play the UT role he made famous in Tampa.

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#31 : February 16, 2011, 12:52:39 PM

Okam is an Under-tackle guys.

Played three-technique for us.

Didn't play the nose in the 3-4 or 3-3-5

Yeah, but you gotta figure McCoy and Price not being in the line-up affected that.  Okam is more of a NT with those guys on the roster.

I think Okam is a 3-tech regardless of who else is playing.  He's not as stout as his size would indicate and his length gives him poor anchoring leverage.  I see him as McCoy's backup if he's active for us.


GameTime

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#32 : February 16, 2011, 01:09:49 PM

get the best players on the field.

\"Lets put the O back in Country\"

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#33 : February 16, 2011, 01:19:29 PM


You have to take into consideration that Okam started playing well when he got used to being on the team. He gradually got better as he got used to being here. Okam should be one of the starters in the middle for us next year, period.

He had one good game. One. He was a 5th round draft pick by the Texans in 2008 who got cut from their roster after logging 4 tackles in 2 seasons. He gets picked up by us, is moved to the active roster due to injury, logs 13 tackles in 3 games, 6 coming against the Seahawks, and he should be a bar none starter for us? Seriously, that is absurd. He will provide good depth, but no way in the world did he show me he is a better 3-tech than Gerald McCoy, nor did he show me he has more potential than Brian Price. Should be a starter period? Wow. That's crazy talk.


Miller will be a good sub and Price should be our other starter. We have to consider that we do not really even know what we have in the middle of our D line because they got hurt or they were not with us to start the year. I like what Bennett showed but we didn't play much. McCoy is going to be a good DT, but with his skill you have to wonder what kind of numbers he would put up as a DE. I think he could put up incredible numbers.

McCoy is not an outside pass rusher. He is a DT, and a darn good one at that. I am so completely amazed at anybody who thinks we should move McCoy to another position so we can make room for Frank Okam. Wow. Just...wow.


PassThePigSkin

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#34 : February 16, 2011, 02:15:11 PM

I don't think McCoy's contract or draft position should have any negative effect on where he is slotted along the DL.  It wasn't until recently that DTs started making around the same range as DEs anyway.

If Morris wants to appease the fans he will put McCoy in a position that best fits him, which IMO is LE and keep him there.  That is the best way for him to succeed.  Rep after rep at the same position.  He is a finesse DT, but out on the edge that works for him a lot better.  He can use his quickness and athleticism to beat the majority of RTs in the league.

Price and Okam are way better suited for the UT position in our defense and will take a lot of pressure off McCoy on the outside.  McCoy will enjoy a lot of one on ones with those two next to him.

I see a lot of people interested in guys like Adrian Clayborn.  Why take a guy like him to play LE when we have a better version in McCoy already rostered and being paid a ton of money.

If you look at players Millard's coached (http://www.coachmillard.com/Keith_Millard_Football_Academy/Players.html) to big sack totals you will find the majority of them being very close to McCoy's stature while playing at DE.  Reggie Hayward 6-5 280, Trevor Pryce 6-5 290, Bertrand Berry was closer to McCoy's size than his listed weight of 6-3 254 and most recently we saw McCoy's fellow draft mate Lamarr Houston play LE for the Raiders at 6-3 305 with 5 sacks this year.

To me the most bang for the Buc would be to have Millard put McCoy in the same LE position he helped all these guys reach successful numbers at and have Price who compares very favorably to Sapp play the UT role he made famous in Tampa.

It's more to it then size. McCoy wouldn't be a good DE even decent, he has quickness and athleticism but the guy can't work in space. Morris already showed it's not about what the fans want with his team our Brooks would have been with TB the year he took over. How do you know Price is the better UT? wouldn't he have been a top choice if he was better suited for it than McCoy. Price is built for the NT position He is short and powerful a lot of people will see this if there is a season. Frank Okam is a 350 pound NT. When I played football I was a Guard and changing to Tackle it was a different world working the outside. All the guys you named have been DEs most of there college career and didn't move from DT to DE.

Dy-nasty D

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#35 : February 16, 2011, 02:33:33 PM

Price at UT, Okam at NT, McCoy at LDE.... Quinn (Am I allowed to dream?) at RDE..... :D... Bennett, Miller, Woods, McGee as backups.... hmmm...

I really think we might be best with Price at UT and McCoy at LE, but after drafting McCoy so high and giving him such a huge contract, I'll be very surprised (and impressed) if Rah and Dom have the balls to admit Price is the better UT and actually move McCoy to LE. In all honesty though if you forget about where folks were drafted and the size of contracts....McCoy's longer leaner frame and the way he plays the game could make him a dominant LE, while Price is 10x better at getting immediate penetration up the middle. The problem is in real life we can't just forget about where they were drafted and the size of their contract. If McCoy was really moved to LE, Rah and Dom would catch all kinds of hell from the sports writers, the fans, and the owners.

As far as Okam at NT, I'm not sure if he is the best, but with him, Woods, and Miller all competing for that spot I am confident whichever one wins will be a solid starting nose tackle for us. I'd like Okam to win though, because he has the highest ceiling with the most potential.

Yeah, I dabble in this kind of speculation, too, but the actual reality is that McCoy played very well his last couple of games at UT, and Price, although he is a Sapp look-a-like, hasn't done squat.

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#36 : February 16, 2011, 03:05:59 PM

You are right, Price hasn't done squat. He might never do squat in the NFL, but by watching their college tape there is no doubt that Price is faster off the snap and gets quicker penetration up the middle. McCoy tends to wait and react where as Price just immediately explodes through his gap.

I'm not saying Price is definitely the better UT, I'm just saying there is a good chance. Last year in OTAs all we heard was how Price nearly ruined practice by being so disruptive. He was out playing McCoy and that was with a bad hip. If he comes back healthy there is a very good possibility he once again out shines McCoy at UT. If it happens...what do you do? Stick with your #3 pick to save face or swallow your pride and start the best player?
: February 16, 2011, 03:07:41 PM JDouble


PassThePigSkin

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#37 : February 16, 2011, 04:19:30 PM

You are right, Price hasn't done squat. He might never do squat in the NFL, but by watching their college tape there is no doubt that Price is faster off the snap and gets quicker penetration up the middle. McCoy tends to wait and react where as Price just immediately explodes through his gap.

I'm not saying Price is definitely the better UT, I'm just saying there is a good chance. Last year in OTAs all we heard was how Price nearly ruined practice by being so disruptive. He was out playing McCoy and that was with a bad hip. If he comes back healthy there is a very good possibility he once again out shines McCoy at UT. If it happens...what do you do? Stick with your #3 pick to save face or swallow your pride and start the best player?
I thought Oklahoma and UCLA ran different Dline fronts, Oklahoma was the read and react team and UcLA was more aggressive. Stick with you're #3 I say there is no way Price can beat out McCoy. 2 things against Price will he be in shape? and how will he play against starters. Anybody who can dominate TB oline in practice isn't saying much, most of the time they know what the play is.

Handiman1031

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#38 : February 16, 2011, 04:37:50 PM

You are right, Price hasn't done squat. He might never do squat in the NFL, but by watching their college tape there is no doubt that Price is faster off the snap and gets quicker penetration up the middle. McCoy tends to wait and react where as Price just immediately explodes through his gap.

I'm not saying Price is definitely the better UT, I'm just saying there is a good chance. Last year in OTAs all we heard was how Price nearly ruined practice by being so disruptive. He was out playing McCoy and that was with a bad hip. If he comes back healthy there is a very good possibility he once again out shines McCoy at UT. If it happens...what do you do? Stick with your #3 pick to save face or swallow your pride and start the best player?
I thought Oklahoma and UCLA ran different Dline fronts, Oklahoma was the read and react team and UcLA was more aggressive. Stick with you're #3 I say there is no way Price can beat out McCoy. 2 things against Price will he be in shape? and how will he play against starters. Anybody who can dominate TB oline in practice isn't saying much, most of the time they know what the play is.

No Suh's defense at Nebraska was a read and react scheme under Pelini.  All McCoy was asked to do was get up field and disrupt the play, which is why he was looked at as a bad run defender.  McCoy and Price both played some DE as well in college, but I think in the NFL the lengthy McCoy would be better suited to seal the edge while Price's stout and strong frame will work better at UT.  Putting Price at the Nose is fine if you want to waste his disruptive get off.  He is capable of playing the nose, but why wouldn't you put him at UT where he can fire into his gap and push the play out to McCoy at LE.

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#39 : February 16, 2011, 04:54:20 PM

You are right, Price hasn't done squat. He might never do squat in the NFL, but by watching their college tape there is no doubt that Price is faster off the snap and gets quicker penetration up the middle. McCoy tends to wait and react where as Price just immediately explodes through his gap.

I'm not saying Price is definitely the better UT, I'm just saying there is a good chance. Last year in OTAs all we heard was how Price nearly ruined practice by being so disruptive. He was out playing McCoy and that was with a bad hip. If he comes back healthy there is a very good possibility he once again out shines McCoy at UT. If it happens...what do you do? Stick with your #3 pick to save face or swallow your pride and start the best player?
I thought Oklahoma and UCLA ran different Dline fronts, Oklahoma was the read and react team and UcLA was more aggressive. Stick with you're #3 I say there is no way Price can beat out McCoy. 2 things against Price will he be in shape? and how will he play against starters. Anybody who can dominate TB oline in practice isn't saying much, most of the time they know what the play is.

No Suh's defense at Nebraska was a read and react scheme under Pelini.  All McCoy was asked to do was get up field and disrupt the play, which is why he was looked at as a bad run defender.  McCoy and Price both played some DE as well in college, but I think in the NFL the lengthy McCoy would be better suited to seal the edge while Price's stout and strong frame will work better at UT.  Putting Price at the Nose is fine if you want to waste his disruptive get off.  He is capable of playing the nose, but why wouldn't you put him at UT where he can fire into his gap and push the play out to McCoy at LE.


I just don't think McCoy has the passrush skills to play DE,  Yes he is a long player but he plays with good pad leverage. Everytime I watched McCoy rush from the outside he didn't get good pressure at all, Because he can't play in space and he don't have the quickness to play DE. That is why I think Price is a better NT, he is stout and has a strong frame which is needed for that position. Putting him at NT shouldn't waste his get off, he showed in college he can break double teams and still make plays, also he won't have to always play NT that is why I love the fact that TB went after two DTs who can do spot duty at another position. Either position you have to fire into your gap Roy Miller did just fine and Price is a way better Talent than miller is.

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#40 : February 16, 2011, 05:03:36 PM

Price is just over 6ft and PR reported he was down to 285lbs by the end of preseason. I don't think he has the size to be a nose tackle.



Handiman1031

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#41 : February 16, 2011, 05:27:35 PM

Yeah I mean I understand what people are saying and you guys are most likely right about that being the way they line up next season.  Just based on what I would like to see personally given Millard's track record with teaching DL I think he could turn McCoy into the next Strahan.  Take the thinking out of it and just let McCoy attack that C gap.

                FS                     SS
                 WLB    MLB             
CB             E      T       T    E     SLB                    CB
 SE              T  G  C  G  T  TE
                              Q                                        FL
                              F
                              R

Thats what I picture Morris' ideal 4-3 alignment to look like with the SLB coming down as basically a rush OLB/DE hybrid.  This would allow McCoy at LE to either take the C gap in this basic alignment or have him and Price shift inside where Price becomes responsible for the A gap between the Center/RG and McCoy takes the B gap.  This would not allow teams to get a good Idea whether Price or McCoy are coming as the 3-tech on any given play, but we have four down lineman and a SLB to either blitz or drop back depending on what he reads.

Ideally I would like the SLB to really be the Nickelback meaning Ronde or Grimm would be the guy to blitz or read the pass on any given play.  Those two both seem like they would be great in that role being the cerebral players they are.

GameTime

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#42 : February 16, 2011, 06:54:40 PM

. I am so completely amazed at anybody who thinks we should move McCoy to another position so we can make room for Frank Okam. Wow. Just...wow.

i dont think anyone wants to move McCoy to make room for frank okam.  some of us mention moving McCoy to get him and Price on the field together.

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#43 : February 16, 2011, 07:03:19 PM

Price is just over 6ft and PR reported he was down to 285lbs by the end of preseason. I don't think he has the size to be a nose tackle.

I haven't seen that. Everything i've seen had him at 303. He has the ability to play NT, this year will show that.

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#44 : February 16, 2011, 07:11:03 PM

I think Okam is a 3-tech regardless of who else is playing.  He's not as stout as his size would indicate and his length gives him poor anchoring leverage.  I see him as McCoy's backup if he's active for us.

This.

Okam failed in Houston and Seattle because they flirted with sticking him at the nose next to Amobi Okoye and Brandon Mebane respectively.

He is a quick twitch penetrating DT. Not a plugger.

Therefore I'm not completely sure he has a place on the active roster once Brian Price and Gerald McCoy, our (hopefully) elite three-technique prospects, return from injury.
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