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spartan

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#15 : February 20, 2011, 05:12:48 PM

generally speaking guys are bigger, tougher, meaner and stronger than women.

Weight classes eliminate the "bigger" and "stronger" differences. The "meaner" and "tougher" separations are purely subjective, and not really accurate.

Disagree. Not saying any woman cannot compete, I am saying that as a RULE, even when they are the same weight, guys are meaner and stronger.
: February 20, 2011, 05:14:32 PM spartan

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#16 : February 20, 2011, 06:29:26 PM

PLANT CITY, Fla. -- She registered another perfect pitching record this year, 12-0, for her Little League team.

She threw her second perfect game -- and predicted this one just hours before she did it.

Her fastball hits the mid-60s, and she can send opponents to the bench in tears, embarrassing them with a knuckleball she learned from former major league knuckleball legend Joe Niekro.

Meet Chelsea Baker, a girl pitcher in a boys' league.

Heads are turning in Plant City, where Chelsea hasn't lost a sanctioned Little League game in four seasons.

Although it is a little early to call the 13-year-old the next big thing in baseball, she's a sought-after pitcher who has the attention of respected talent evaluators, including former Boston Red Sox general manager Dan Duquette. They see grand possibilities in her developing knuckleball, already-hopping fastball and strong hitting skills that sparked a .604 batting average this past season.

"She is definitely one-of-a-kind," said Keith Maxwell, one of her coaches and a former minor leaguer who coaches Little Leaguers across several states. "I've had an opportunity to play with some girls coming up in Little League, and they were actually pretty good ballplayers. Some of them actually made all-star teams and that kind of stuff. Chelsea is on a whole different planet compared to them.

"Chelsea Baker is by far the best female 13-year-old girl [baseball player] in the United States. She is the best I've ever seen in my life hands down. The sky is the limit."

"After I usually strike somebody out with a knuckleball, they sometimes start crying back to the dugout, and a lot of them just like open their mouth like they can't believe it," she said.

"There's no crying in baseball, right?" said Duquette, the former Red Sox executive. "It's embarrassing to strike out anytime, but I'm sure for young boys it's probably more embarrassing to be struck out by a girl."

Corey Blanchette, a player on a team of all-stars from Pittsfield, Mass., laughed after recently becoming a victim.

"She got me on the two fastballs, and I didn't know she had a knuckle curve, and then the knuckle came in and it was just so dirty [good] I didn't know what to say," he said.

Duquette seems to think that being a female won't be a factor in how far Chelsea is able to go in her baseball career.

"People will recognize Chelsea Baker, and they'll promote her based on her skill," he said. "Her gender won't really matter to anybody if she develops the skills. She'll find the opportunity.

"I know that there are some physical limitations that will not allow the girls to compete with the boys on higher levels, but if Chelsea Baker can perfect her knuckleball, she has a chance. The knuckleball is a great equalizer, and that would give her an out pitch, where she could get hitters out, irrespective of their sex and irrespective of their level."

As Chelsea heads into eighth grade next year, she is already thinking about high school. She plans to try out for the high school boys' baseball team.

Plant City high school baseball coach Mark Persails, who played for 12 years with Detroit Tigers and Houston Astros, is looking forward to her coming of age.

"Please come out!" he said. "Seeing her in little leagues, she competes and is very successful. Of course I want someone who is that successful. I want her on the high school team."

Persails said he has no reservations about a girl playing on a boys' team, only that he would have to figure out the locker room situation.

"She should have the same opportunity everybody else has, and she might be able to help me keep my job," he said.

Chelsea said she ultimately hopes to play baseball in college and, someday, professionally.

It isn't unprecedented. Japanese knuckleball pitcher Eri Yoshida is pitching in an independent California professional league. Yoshida is the first woman to pitch professionally in the United States in a decade.

Chelsea has noticed: "That's pretty cool that there's a girl that's playing professional baseball."

Duquette thinks the day is coming when a female will pitch in the major leagues.

"I think it would be a terrific human-interest story, and I think with the girls doing weight training, the breakthrough in nutrition, their capability to train on a year-round basis and to develop these fine skills, all those opportunities are there," he said. "I wouldn't be surprised to see that."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/e60/news/story?id=5386830

TheAman

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#17 : February 20, 2011, 11:45:19 PM

generally speaking guys are bigger, tougher, meaner and stronger than women.

Weight classes eliminate the "bigger" and "stronger" differences. The "meaner" and "tougher" separations are purely subjective, and not really accurate.

Disagree. Not saying any woman cannot compete, I am saying that as a RULE, even when they are the same weight, guys are meaner and stronger.

Out of curiosity, have you ever seen high school wrestling?  Because I'm saying as a RULE, it doesn't matter who's meaner or stronger, in wrestling, whoever has the better technique wins.

GameTime

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#18 : February 21, 2011, 12:35:18 PM

i think as a rule, girls should have their own divisions.

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#19 : February 21, 2011, 02:57:16 PM

i think as a rule, girls should have their own divisions.

Their own divisions or they can't wrestle .... I'm amazed that co-ed wrestling is allowed.

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#20 : February 21, 2011, 03:01:40 PM


Probably not enough participants at this point to support their own divisions. Just to clarify, I'm not in support of co-ed wrestling. But I'm not seeing a physiological reason why a 150 lb. man with ten percent body fat would be stronger than a 150 lb. woman with ten percent body fat.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

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#21 : February 21, 2011, 03:06:50 PM

But I'm not seeing a physiological reason why a 150 lb. man with ten percent body fat would be stronger than a 150 lb. woman with ten percent body fat.

not to take this in the wrong direction, but is there a physiological reason why black men are more prevalent than white men in track and field sprints?

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Chief Joseph

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#22 : February 21, 2011, 03:08:56 PM

But I'm not seeing a physiological reason why a 150 lb. man with ten percent body fat would be stronger than a 150 lb. woman with ten percent body fat.

not to take this in the wrong direction, but is there a physiological reason why black men are more prevalent than white men in track and field sprints?

Yes, muscle tissue density, more fast twitch fibers - a physiological difference. That same muscle tissue density is a disadvantage in swimming.


Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

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#23 : February 21, 2011, 03:13:45 PM


Probably not enough participants at this point to support their own divisions. Just to clarify, I'm not in support of co-ed wrestling. But I'm not seeing a physiological reason why a 150 lb. man with ten percent body fat would be stronger than a 150 lb. woman with ten percent body fat.

I don't think there is a physiological reason, but more of a ... and i'm not sure what word to use here. Moral reason doesn't seem to fit exactly ... I just don't think teenage boys should be rolling around on the floor with teenage girls, wearing skin tight spandex, in a sporting event .... Damn, that sounds prudish!

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#24 : February 21, 2011, 03:50:14 PM

Yes, muscle tissue density, more fast twitch fibers - a physiological difference. That same muscle tissue density is a disadvantage in swimming.

in general, do males have more fast twitch fibers than females?

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Chief Joseph

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#25 : February 21, 2011, 04:34:18 PM


Not to my knowledge, but I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary, either. Is a higher percentage of fast twitch fibers an advantage in wrestling? If not, it has no relevance to this conversation anyway.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

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#26 : February 21, 2011, 04:50:25 PM

the Iowa Hawkeyes are pretty much one of the top programs in college wrestling year after year.  Their 2010-11 roster has 40 guys on it.  39 are white.  I would say the densier fast twitch muscle fiber probably doesn't matter in the sport.


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#27 : February 21, 2011, 05:09:11 PM

On the surface it can seem admirable for a girl to compete with men. However in a contact sport is it possible they are fooling themselves a little bit?
On paper as Illuminator says there shouldn't be a huge advantage in size or anything. What you have to consider though is this, even if a guy doesn't bow
out, does he wrestle as hard and as relentless as he would against another guy? Chance are the majority of them are going half speed and give the
illusion that the girl is in fact beating these guys at their finest. I know personally I would be thinking more about how I wouldn't want to hurt them. The same
people that are booing at this guy for not wanting to fight her are more than likely the same people who would be calling him nasty names for hurting a girl.

I can't relate to wrestling in particular, but if I think of another contact sport like football I can be pretty crazy in terms of just running over other guys at full
speed, but if you put a girl out there, you won't get the same mentality. I'll end up letting up before I hit them and helping them to the ground. There's just
something that's not right about lighting up a girl. It's the same reason why a lot of guys would let themselves get half beat up just trying to restrain a
violent girl rather than just taking her out with a punch.

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#28 : February 21, 2011, 05:11:46 PM


I would contend that the prospect of losing to a female would provide added incentive to win.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

spartan

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#29 : February 21, 2011, 05:12:06 PM

Yes, muscle tissue density, more fast twitch fibers - a physiological difference. That same muscle tissue density is a disadvantage in swimming.

in general, do males have more fast twitch fibers than females?

Umm, shall I go there? No, best not.

Why are 5ft 10 males generally faster than 5ft 10 females?

Men and women are built differently, it is as simple as that. Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not advocating that no female could be good at wrestling, or any other sport for that matter, but I think this guy as a legitimate reason for saying thanks, but no thanks because I may hurt her.
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