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JDouble

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: March 21, 2011, 08:17:30 PM

So when ever I say that Gerald McCoy would make a great LE for us and that we might want to consider moving him if Brian Price shows to be the better UT in camp....I get ridiculed. I hear he is way too big and slow and that it isn't an important enough position for a 1st round pick and all this other garbage. So why is it that almost everyone is in love with Cameron Jordan in the first round to be our LE? He has the same size, same lean build, and same skill set as McCoy. So someone please explain to me why it would be worth it to spend a 1st round pick on a stud LDE like Cameron Jordan, possibly even trade up five spots to do it according to PR...but having McCoy play LDE is a horribly stupid idea. Enlighten me.


McCoy is 6-5 295lbs
Jordan is 6-4 290lbs

If you look at their combine numbers, Jordan is better in just about everything...but only by a very slight amount.

Their college stats are almost identical.

On tape they look similar.

Am I missing something?


Hate

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#1 : March 21, 2011, 08:21:14 PM

LMAO @ "riddle me this......"

-------------------------------------------------------
   

 I thought Lovie said he wanted quickness & speed, even at the QB position?

tatmanfish

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#2 : March 21, 2011, 08:35:01 PM

i dont think its a stretch at all, i just dont think the Bucs are going to do it. They move him around some as it is, but i believe they see him as an an UT before anything else.



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dbucfan

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#3 : March 21, 2011, 08:40:31 PM

It could happen Riddler, it could indeed work out that very way.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

GameTime

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#4 : March 21, 2011, 08:47:51 PM

im the minority, but i want jordan as the RDE and mccoy as the LDE.

\"Lets put the O back in Country\"

jeanclaud

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#5 : March 21, 2011, 09:06:36 PM

You can't pay the guy #3 money to be a LE when he's tailor made to play UT. McCoy would have to fail and fail hard next season for that to be an option. That's just draft economics. He showed flashes before his injury and it's entirely possible that he will become the dominant UT that we've been looking for.

I will also continually dispute that McCoy at LE is a good idea at all. It has to do with his skillset. McCoy and Cam Jordan are similar how? They're the same size? They have completely different body types. Similar combine numbers? When has that ever meant anything? They have similar overall stats? They had completely different assignments and technique in college. They have different skillsets and playstyles. Apples to oranges on this one.

Also there's this idea going around that Price and McCoy can't play next to each other for whatever reason. The old Tampa 2 dichotomies are gone, the base sets are gone. There's no reason that Price and McCoy can't play next to each other in a variety of looks where they can both penetrate and disrupt.

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#6 : March 21, 2011, 09:09:07 PM

Stats and size doesn't mean everything.   It's where the guy performs best.   Look at Dumervil for instance.   Not the biggest guy at the DE position but he gets the job done.  I think it's all about where a guy feels comfortable playing, and where his particular talents shine through best.  And that is Dominik and Morris's job, to get the guys in the best position possible. And I trust in them to do that.

Biggs3535

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#7 : March 21, 2011, 09:46:43 PM

So someone please explain to me why it would be worth it to spend a 1st round pick on a stud LDE like Cameron Jordan, possibly even trade up five spots to do it according to PR...but having McCoy play LDE is a horribly stupid idea. Enlighten me.

The thought process behind it is you don't use a top 5 pick on a guy just for him to play a secondary position like LDE.  Using a mid-first rounder on a LDE, if he's the BPA, is a little easier to swallow.

Can McCoy play LDE?  Sure.  But if he can be a dominant UT, that's a vast waste of talent.  It would have been like Oakland playing Charles Woodson at Safety after he was drafted.


GameTime

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#8 : March 21, 2011, 10:15:23 PM

You can't pay the guy #3 money to be a LE when he's tailor made to play UT. McCoy would have to fail and fail hard next season for that to be an option. That's just draft economics. He showed flashes before his injury and it's entirely possible that he will become the dominant UT that we've been looking for.

I will also continually dispute that McCoy at LE is a good idea at all. It has to do with his skillset. McCoy and Cam Jordan are similar how? They're the same size? They have completely different body types. Similar combine numbers? When has that ever meant anything? They have similar overall stats? They had completely different assignments and technique in college. They have different skillsets and playstyles. Apples to oranges on this one.

Also there's this idea going around that Price and McCoy can't play next to each other for whatever reason. The old Tampa 2 dichotomies are gone, the base sets are gone. There's no reason that Price and McCoy can't play next to each other in a variety of looks where they can both penetrate and disrupt.

if the guy becomes an all-pro force at LE, does it really matter?  if mccoy is tailor made to play UT, what does that mean for price?  i thought most compared price moreso to sapp?  as for disputing mccoy to LE, thats fine and of course it wont happen.  but if scott reynolds thinks it could work im sure not gonna argue.

as for both of them playing next to each other, why would you pay a NT 2nd round money?  isnt that a similar thought process to paying a LE top 5 money?  i say put your best 11 on the field.

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#9 : March 21, 2011, 10:17:41 PM

The thought process behind it is you don't use a top 5 pick on a guy just for him to play a secondary position like LDE.  Using a mid-first rounder on a LDE, if he's the BPA, is a little easier to swallow.

Can McCoy play LDE?  Sure.  But if he can be a dominant UT, that's a vast waste of talent.  It would have been like Oakland playing Charles Woodson at Safety after he was drafted.

if mccoy can be a dominant LDE, and price can be a dominant UT, and our 1st rounder this year can be a dominant RDE...is it really a waste?   if you have a talent like mccoy at LE, does it have to be a secondary position?

\"Lets put the O back in Country\"

JDouble

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#10 : March 21, 2011, 10:26:06 PM

The thought process behind it is you don't use a top 5 pick on a guy just for him to play a secondary position like LDE.  Using a mid-first rounder on a LDE, if he's the BPA, is a little easier to swallow.

Can McCoy play LDE?  Sure.  But if he can be a dominant UT, that's a vast waste of talent.  It would have been like Oakland playing Charles Woodson at Safety after he was drafted.

if mccoy can be a dominant LDE, and price can be a dominant UT, and our 1st rounder this year can be a dominant RDE...is it really a waste?   if you have a talent like mccoy at LE, does it have to be a secondary position?

People in Tampa think LDE is not an important position because we've never had great LDEs. We've always just been content with solid dependable guys like Chidi and Spires. You look at teams like the Vikings with Ray Edwards and Jared Allen, or Indy with Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis...and you see that having great talent at both ends is huge for 4-3 teams. One day we'll get an amazing talent at LDE and it will change the culture in Tampa.


Biggs3535

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#11 : March 21, 2011, 10:36:56 PM

The thought process behind it is you don't use a top 5 pick on a guy just for him to play a secondary position like LDE.  Using a mid-first rounder on a LDE, if he's the BPA, is a little easier to swallow.

Can McCoy play LDE?  Sure.  But if he can be a dominant UT, that's a vast waste of talent.  It would have been like Oakland playing Charles Woodson at Safety after he was drafted.

if mccoy can be a dominant LDE, and price can be a dominant UT, and our 1st rounder this year can be a dominant RDE...is it really a waste?   if you have a talent like mccoy at LE, does it have to be a secondary position?

Those are pretty big "if's".  How about we let McCoy play the position he was drafted to play, a position he started to play very well before his injury, before we try to move him.  If he sucks at DT, then try him at another position.



People in Tampa think LDE is not an important position because we've never had great LDEs. We've always just been content with solid dependable guys like Chidi and Spires. You look at teams like the Vikings with Ray Edwards and Jared Allen, or Indy with Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis...and you see that having great talent at both ends is huge for 4-3 teams. One day we'll get an amazing talent at LDE and it will change the culture in Tampa.

Edwards and Mathis would be RDE's on teams that don't have dominant pass-rushers like Allen and Freeney.  In fact, Edwards was the RDE for Minny before they traded for Allen.

You fellas think McCoy can be an outside pass-rushing LDE in a 4-3?  No way.  There is a reason he's played DT in college and the NFL.
: March 21, 2011, 10:38:45 PM Biggs3535


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#12 : March 21, 2011, 10:41:27 PM

McCoy only played 1 year at LDE for OU and it wasn't his full time position there he played 3-4 DE too. Jordan has more experience(2-3 years) in that role, its apples and oranges.

GameTime

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#13 : March 21, 2011, 10:50:19 PM

Those are pretty big "if's".  How about we let McCoy play the position he was drafted to play, a position he started to play very well before his injury, before we try to move him.  If he sucks at DT, then try him at another position.

i think they are medium sized "ifs" at best.  but i wouldnt worry, i dont think anyone is counting on morris moving mccoy.  i do think it puts more talent on the field, can you argue that?

You fellas think McCoy can be an outside pass-rushing LDE in a 4-3?  No way.

why not?

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#14 : March 21, 2011, 10:57:37 PM

if the guy becomes an all-pro force at LE, does it really matter?  if mccoy is tailor made to play UT, what does that mean for price?  i thought most compared price moreso to sapp?  as for disputing mccoy to LE, thats fine and of course it wont happen.  but if scott reynolds thinks it could work im sure not gonna argue.

as for both of them playing next to each other, why would you pay a NT 2nd round money?  isnt that a similar thought process to paying a LE top 5 money?  i say put your best 11 on the field.

The thing that stinks about this whole argument is the idea that McCoy should be moving at all. If you say that Price and McCoy have similar skillsets and therefore shouldn't/can't be on the field at the same time (which I do not concede at all), then shouldn't we be logically be talking about moving Price to LDE instead of McCoy? McCoy was drafted higher, makes MUCH more, is better suited for UT, has played more and played better.

Regarding getting your best 11 on the field... that sounds well and good in theory, but the reality is that NFL D-lines rotate... a lot. You aren't as good as just your best 11 players. D-line rotation (especially at DTs where we have been ground down before) , nickel backs, situational rushers, they're all important.

And how many DT -> DE conversions (or vice versa) can you think of that have been successful? Justin Tuck is probably the only player in the league that could pull that off. Generally speaking, swinging a DE in or a DT out is the last resort to salvage a player. It often fails.

There's a reason why this FO is not considering the moves advocated in this thread. It's because they're smart. Remember Dominik talking about planning his future drafts around future talent and how this draft was DE rich? I say leave McCoy where he's at and let's get some impact defensive ends.
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