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GameTime

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#30 : March 22, 2011, 08:06:06 AM

No I'm saying his lateral quickness would not be quick enough for NFL Tackles. There aren't many elite pass protecting interior player than there is for tackles. Since those interior lineman aren't really required to have good footwork. McCoy would have it harder to use his quickness on the edge than in the inside. Comprende?

it sounds like a LE needs elite lateral quickness, elite vertical quickness, and should be an anchor against the run...yet its only a secondary position in most fans' eyes.

i do agree that a RT probably has better footwork than a RG.  but i also think that mccoy has better athleticism/quickness than most RT's.

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#31 : March 22, 2011, 08:10:08 AM

Detrimental, I think you are mistaking lateral movement for great hands and footwork. Sapp wasn't moving side to side, he was moving straight forward to the QB. He just had great hands and footwork that combined with his initial burst to make him unblockable at times. He'd fly right through the line between the center and the guard before they even knew what happened. This is what Price has that makes me think he has more potential at UT.


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#32 : March 22, 2011, 08:14:29 AM

No I'm saying his lateral quickness would not be quick enough for NFL Tackles. There aren't many elite pass protecting interior player than there is for tackles. Since those interior lineman aren't really required to have good footwork. McCoy would have it harder to use his quickness on the edge than in the inside. Comprende?

it sounds like a LE needs elite lateral quickness, elite vertical quickness, and should be an anchor against the run...yet its only a secondary position in most fans' eyes.

i do agree that a RT probably has better footwork than a RG. but i also think that mccoy has better athleticism/quickness than most RT's.
In most cases at OU when he played LDE that was the case but after watching him pass rush from that spot last year I honestly couldn't tell.

As long as we get a stud on the edge that can produce sacks and pressures, I could careless where he plays. I'd prefer a RDE over a LDE though simply because this class has pretty good looking NFL prospects and the fact that depending which RDE we select could be moved around to play LB too.

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#33 : March 22, 2011, 08:26:05 AM

I think the one thing Cameron Jordan really has going for him at LE is his 3ft arms and his 12" hands. You usually see those measurable on OTs that are nearly 7ft tall, not 6'4" DEs. You obviously need f=more than freakishly long arms and big hands to be great, but I think it will help him be very effective against OTs in the NFL.


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#34 : March 22, 2011, 09:52:44 AM

Anyone remember what position Reggie White and Michael Strahan played?

The same position Julius Peppers played most of the time in Carolina and most of the elite college pass rushers are playing now.

Both of those players were prototypical pass-rushing "RDE"'s, regardless of where they lined up.  It was more of a strategic move to put them on each team's weakest OT.



McCoy  is better suited for UT.

how so?
His lateral quickness favors against interior players moreso than tackle.

Precisely.

People are assuming that McCoy would excel as a LDE in a 4-3 because Morris used him as a LDE in his 3-4/3-3-5 sets.  That isn't how it works.  In those sets, McCoy was basically the 4-3 UT.


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#35 : March 22, 2011, 10:04:48 AM

That said, McCoy was regarding as probably the best UT prospect of the past 10-15 years.
Eh he was a nice prospect but at best the #4 DT of the past two years.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#36 : March 22, 2011, 10:10:42 AM

Pass rushing against a RT is a lot different than rushing against a Guard. First it takes several more steps to get to the QB from a 5 - 9 technique than it does a 3, 1, or 0 technique.

My personal opionion is that in today's NFL you need to to show the Right Tackle a lot of different looks. You need someone who can hold the point against him on running downs. You're not expecting much pass rush from that guy, and to put a guy like McCoy or Jordan out there all game is really a waste of talent. Then on passing downs you need a guy who can threaten the edge with speed and really take advantage of the RT not being as athletic.

If you look at what Green Bay did last year they went to a lot of 2 man lines on passing downs, so they had their best guys for power and hand fighting challenging the Guards and Center. Then they had the rest of their pass rushers walking around, really making it hard for the Tackles, Backs, and TE's to know who and at what angle they were going to have to block.

This is a copy cat league, and I think we will see a lot of teams looking to do that to slow down passing attacks this year. That means that guys who pass rush from the inside like Jordan (or McCoy) are going to have more value, and so are guys who can stand up and rush from the outside like Houston or Miller. It also means that guys who are edge power rushers like Kerrigan and Clayborn are going to have less value.

I agree that we already have our inside rushers, so Jordan is not a good fit here. He will be long gone by the time we pick anyway though.

: March 22, 2011, 10:20:10 AM BucsPirate1

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#37 : March 22, 2011, 12:32:16 PM

Anyone remember what position Reggie White and Michael Strahan played?

The same position Julius Peppers played most of the time in Carolina and most of the elite college pass rushers are playing now.

Both of those players were prototypical pass-rushing "RDE"'s, regardless of where they lined up.  It was more of a strategic move to put them on each team's weakest OT.

Biggs,
Reggie and Michael always.....90% of the time lined up against the RT and IIRC JP terrorized Kenyatta and Trueblood for years.  A great DE can make it happen from either side.  Those are 3 names and I'm sure there are many more that were just effective from that side as any DE was from the other side.

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2.  For some it would be better if they remained silent and be thought a fool than to speak and erase all doubt.

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#38 : March 22, 2011, 12:35:06 PM

McCoy is not Peppers, Strahan, nor Reggie White.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#39 : March 22, 2011, 02:55:37 PM

Most of the Time McCoy was getting doubled at UT leaving the NT with a 1 on 1. Keeping McCoy at UT and having Price play NT will workout just fine, if price can return from his injury.  The way Raheem ran his defense showed McCoy playing NT with price at UT. So really we will see McCoy at the DE spot and price at UT without having to completely switch positions.

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#40 : March 22, 2011, 03:22:58 PM

because people told you isnt the greatest reasoning why mccoy is better suited to play UT than price.  no one is arguing that mccoy cant/wont make a great UT.  the questioning is why cant he make a great LE?  why does he have more potential than price?  i dont think you have to tear down price to discuss why/how mccoy is more talented.  i think jdoub put up a nice view with post #18. 

even with the draft day results, i think price has  the potential to be as good or even better than mccoy.  but i think they will both be great.  i just want to see them both get a maximum number of snaps.  you think it should be UT/NT.  i think it should be LE/UT.  why?  because we've got some guys that can play NT.  but we dont have much to speak of at LE.  and thats what started this thread.

We can break this down really easily. It won't happen. It doesn't make sense. People can argue about economics and draft status as though they shouldn't matter, but they clearly do. McCoy was drafted and touted as the premier player at 3-tech. They can't move him until he fails there. It's fundamental front office operating procedure. It would be a PR disaster, and a huge $$ snafu putting $50 mil and the #3 overall pick into a base end. NOT to mention the fact that McCoy played well, is getting better, and Price went on IR week 8 and did nothing on the field!

Thinking about it, maybe McCoy could be a good LDE. I say maybe because his skills don't really transfer. His agility could be negated by more mobile tackles. Tackles also are better at pass-pro than guards. He relies on penetration to disrupt the run but as a LDE he would have to set the edge, control his gap, keep contain which is not his strongsuit. It would be a waste of the very things that we drafted him for. Again I admit because of his elite athleticism, maybe McCoy could be a good LDE. BUT he can be a GREAT 3-tech. Why mess with a good thing?

Also I don't base my opinions on "being told" things. McCoy was drafted for, trained for, coached for, and played at the UT position. Price could definitely play UT. But there's no reason to think he would be better than McCoy, especially since his rather severe injury. Lucky for us, Price also played NT in college and was very good! And like I said before, you need a rotation to keep your D-line fresh in this NFL. It's not about getting the best 4 D-lineman out there all the time. Your entire D-line squad must be deep or it will be exploited.

This really is a thread we should be having, worst case scenario style, 2 years down the road if somehow McCoy busts completely.

That said, McCoy was regarding as probably the best UT prospect of the past 10-15 years.
Eh he was a nice prospect but at best the #4 DT of the past two years.

I'm not sure who you could be talking about. Suh was a better overall prospect but McCoy was the prototype 3-technique. Raji was/is a NT. Fairley had a great year but he's got tons of issues. McCoy was the best UT prospect of the last 10 years.

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#41 : March 22, 2011, 03:46:25 PM

That said, McCoy was regarding as probably the best UT prospect of the past 10-15 years.
Eh he was a nice prospect but at best the #4 DT of the past two years.

I'm not sure who you could be talking about. Suh was a better overall prospect but McCoy was the prototype 3-technique. Raji was/is a NT. Fairley had a great year but he's got tons of issues. McCoy was the best UT prospect of the last 10 years.
In some order Suh, Fairley, Dareus, then McCoy.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#42 : March 22, 2011, 04:19:14 PM

That said, McCoy was regarding as probably the best UT prospect of the past 10-15 years.
Eh he was a nice prospect but at best the #4 DT of the past two years.

I'm not sure who you could be talking about. Suh was a better overall prospect but McCoy was the prototype 3-technique. Raji was/is a NT. Fairley had a great year but he's got tons of issues. McCoy was the best UT prospect of the last 10 years.
In some order Suh, Fairley, Dareus, then McCoy.

I like Dareus, but I put McCoy before he and Fairley.

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#43 : March 22, 2011, 04:25:47 PM

In some order Suh, Fairley, Dareus, then McCoy.

Regardless of how one ranks those guys as prospects, it's been a freakishly good 2 years for DT prospects.  You have to look back pretty far to find anything like this for that position.


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#44 : March 22, 2011, 04:38:28 PM

I'm not sure what made McCoy any better of a prospect Raji, Dorsey, Ellis, and Okoye.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.
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