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Biggs3535

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« #75 : April 06, 2011, 10:09:25 AM »

Refreshing to see someone actually state that on here ... that, no matter what, there is a disadvantaged portion of our society that can never be what they want to be.

These guys agree:




Runole

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« #76 : April 06, 2011, 10:14:13 AM »

Try to get a decent-paying job with no degree today. You can't. Even crap jobs are requiring college degrees now.

Is that because of public education, or certain economic policies that have led to changes in the job market? I mean, public education was still public back in the 1950's.

But it wasn't as politicized back then. Teachers were allowed to teach, discipline their class, fail students who failed and write bad semester reports.

Correct... Today's educational system promotes everyone always being a winner and stating the BS that you can be anything you want to be...
Refreshing to see someone actually state that on here ... that, no matter what, there is a disadvantaged portion of our society that can never be what they want to be.

Disadvantaged?

Maybe they just don't have the prerequisite skills to achieve what they want to be. That is not being disadvantaged but is reality. 

It doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't try though; Not succeeding sometimes is just as important and educational as succeeding. And those, are the words of experience.



Correct..  Everyone has strengths and weaknesses and it is time for our educational system to quit slinging BS that everyone has the same abilities. The pseudo- self esteem crap needs to end.   There is no shame in not being number ONE!  There is only ONE WINNER in any true competition.  That is reality.
A 4.0 is a perfect average it is in an absolute farce to have students claiming GPA's that exceed a 4.0.  It is a stupid as the mindless giving 110%..  Total BS!

jbear

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« #77 : April 06, 2011, 11:15:33 AM »

Not everyone is cut out for medical school.  Trade schools are a great idea.  Not saying they should push kids into them but some kids and parents will probably want to go.  You'll always have the parents in denial about their average student being a brain surgeon when the kid doesnt even want to but thats more of a sociatal problem.  Somehow an honest days work has become something to be ashamed of. 
« : April 06, 2011, 11:17:07 AM jbear »

cyberdude558

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« #78 : April 06, 2011, 01:32:07 PM »

The only industry hiring right now is healthcare. Everybody else is going to struggle to find work right now.

Plus with all the unemployment discrimination that is going on, it makes it worse. You have to have a job to get a job today.

Ladyfan

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« #79 : April 06, 2011, 04:53:48 PM »

Couple of points:
I did get a great education in High School.  We had to take two languages usually Latin and either French, Spanish or German.  We had to take either Chem or Biology labs.  Math was Algebra one and two.  Geometry. Trig and Calculus for the brainy ones.  English reading, breaking down sentences, spelling and improving vocabularly.  We read Shakespere, Chaucer and some current literature.  Manhasset High School on Long Island is still one of the leading HS's in the nation with a classic, traditional curiculuum.  Today IT is added.  We had PE 3 times a week that was outdoors and rigorous. Social Studies, Geography and Environment rounded out rest of studies.  We had home work every night, tests every week and in our Freshman year we began taking SATs to find out weaknesses and work on them for 4 years for college.  New York State had regents exams which were considered minimum requirement for passing into next grade and not the be all and end all for teachers to be evaluated upon.  It was up to parents to make sure their children were on track for either college or trade school.  It was recognized that not everyone would like or benefit from college or could afford it.  If you wanted to make it, it was up to you and your family to make it happen.

I also got a good education in liberal arts and engineering university at Bucknell.  I majored in Philosophy and English with minor in Art.

Not to mention continuing to read all kinds of subjects rest of life.

Main infludences:  My family instilled a love of learning and respect for school and teacher.  I didn't learn to cut classes until college.  lol.  And I worked in Dining Hall for 4 years to pay for Room and Board.

I can see no fault whatsoever in this program.  We memorized stuff and we were creative with various programs.  Its a simple straight forward program.  People who wanted more sent their kids to prep school.


Ladyfan

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« #80 : April 06, 2011, 04:55:28 PM »

The other area that is hiring is IT programming or engineering.  Fixing computers isn't bad either including networking etc.  I will have to work until the day I die.  That's okay.  Honestly, retirement is overrated IMHO. 


Ladyfan

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« #81 : April 06, 2011, 05:12:38 PM »

Unions are needed to protect workers rights.  That's all.  Their rights include having schedules that only are convenient for company especially for part time workers putting iin up to 38 hours with no chance of getting any benefits.  Rights include getting paid time and a half for overtime especially on weekends and holidays.
Rights include being treated with dignity and having more than a 15 min break for every 4-6 hours of work especially if working on computers.  Rights include the right to protest being written up in writing. 

Today's workers are treated like cattle.  The current advantage that bosses have in the workplace ( ie being flooded with unemployed prospects) is reflected in degrading treatment verbally and inquality  assignments given out. Some workers are sometimes made to work 7 days and told if they don't come in Sun, don't come in Monday.  This is especially bizarre for t hose who have some knowledge of labor history.  The rallying cry when unions first ccame into being was against this very abuse and exact demand by corporations.
 

Unions are not currently needed to negotiate a handful of benefits because benefits are being cut and basically don't exist.  In lieu of unions, some of the contract firms that hire out workers and put them on their benefit program and are paid directly by companies do a decent job of protecting their workers from abusive work conditions.   If you have not worked minimum wage lately with firms hiring over 100 people, you may not be aware of salaries not being paid, arbitrary firing, fining etc.  that is going on and needs to be challenged.  It ain't pretty out there folks.

There has to be a place/organization where workers can have their greivances heard in a timely manner with a group that has clout.  Otherwise, you will not believe the abuse that will arise in the workplace and you'll think you are back in NYC in the Triangle Sewing Company where the doors where locked so workers could not take breaks and in which women and children died as a result of the famous fire.  Or maybe you'll have some sympathy for the chinese worker who labors under similar circumstances.

Surely there is a place in American Labor and Corporate Board Rooms for a balance between profit and compassion or if not compassion, at least good manners and civil regard for one's fellow beings.  Don't start yelling about the lazy and the malcontent, not talking about that small ubiquotus population that is offset by the greedy and abusive management types. 

MODERATION IN ALL THINGS = BEST RESULTS FOR INDIVIDUAL AND SOCIETY AT LARGE


Ladyfan

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« #82 : April 06, 2011, 05:17:55 PM »

Gov Scott will eventually be seen by most as a person with no vision just an appetite for nihistic destruction of the hopes and dreams of people who are not millionaires.  He has no respect for any other level of human being.  Money equals distinction, admiration and advantages given to.

He will make the Huns of Asia Minor look like Boy Scouts as he exercises his personal vendettas against those he think "did it to him" as he was growing up.
Whoever they may be and however his eccentric and sad view of life has evolved for him.

Pathetic man who bought his election and the men and women who go with the package.


spartan

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« #83 : April 06, 2011, 05:41:22 PM »

Gov Scott will eventually be seen by most as a person with no vision just an appetite for nihistic destruction of the hopes and dreams of people who are not millionaires.  He has no respect for any other level of human being.  Money equals distinction, admiration and advantages given to.

He will make the Huns of Asia Minor look like Boy Scouts as he exercises his personal vendettas against those he think "did it to him" as he was growing up.
Whoever they may be and however his eccentric and sad view of life has evolved for him.

Pathetic man who bought his election and the men and women who go with the package.

No guessing where you voted then.

And Ladyfan, the only right a worker has is the right to quit if they want to. The rest is negotiated working practices.

Now, I do not disagree with the role of Unions as you more or less describe it, but, THEY seem to have forgotten that. Today they are more of an organization whose sole role is to get as much as it can and screw everybody else. That is where they lost the plot and is the reason why the likes of myself, who comes from a very working class background has lost total and utter respect for them. They are more interested in politics than they are in representing the people that pay their dues. Ever wondered why the biggest fights with Unions erupt when the fights gets to the automatic deduction of dues. This is because they would then have to collect it themselves and justify it. Bit difficult when you "comrades" at top earn this kind of money:

Union: National Education Association
Dennis Van Roekel, received $397,721 in salary and benefits.

Union: Service Employees International Union
Membership: 1.8 million
Assets: $187 million
The former president, Andy Stern, was paid $306,388 in salary and benefits from the union in 2009.

Union: United Food & Commercial Workers
The president, Joseph T. Hansen, received $360,737 in pay and benefits in 2009.

Union: International Brotherhood of Teamsters
The president, James P. Hoffa, was paid $362,869 in pay and benefits.

Union: American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees
Gerald McEntee, who was first elected union president in 1981, was paid $479,328 in salary and benefits in 2009.


Union: Laborers’ International Union of North America
Terence O’Sullivan, union president since 2000, received $618,000 in salary and benefits in 2009.

Union: American Federation of Teachers
Randi Weingarten, who was elected president in 2008, received $428,284 in salary and benefits.

Union: International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
Edwin D. Hill, the union president since 2001, received $375,767 in pay and benefits.

Union: International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers
Robert Buffenbarger, who became president in 1997, received $284,975.

Union: United Automobile, Aerospace and Agricultural Implement Workers of America
Ronald Gettelfinger, who resigned as UAW president in 2010, was paid $173,065 in salary and benefits.

Nothing like looking after their "brothers and sisters". With all due respect Ladyfan you seem to have the rather picturesque outlook of a true believer.


CBWx2

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« #84 : April 06, 2011, 06:37:47 PM »

Gov Scott will eventually be seen by most as a person with no vision just an appetite for nihistic destruction of the hopes and dreams of people who are not millionaires.  He has no respect for any other level of human being.  Money equals distinction, admiration and advantages given to.

He will make the Huns of Asia Minor look like Boy Scouts as he exercises his personal vendettas against those he think "did it to him" as he was growing up.
Whoever they may be and however his eccentric and sad view of life has evolved for him.

Pathetic man who bought his election and the men and women who go with the package.

No guessing where you voted then.

And Ladyfan, the only right a worker has is the right to quit if they want to. The rest is negotiated working practices.

Now, I do not disagree with the role of Unions as you more or less describe it, but, THEY seem to have forgotten that. Today they are more of an organization whose sole role is to get as much as it can and screw everybody else. That is where they lost the plot and is the reason why the likes of myself, who comes from a very working class background has lost total and utter respect for them. They are more interested in politics than they are in representing the people that pay their dues. Ever wondered why the biggest fights with Unions erupt when the fights gets to the automatic deduction of dues. This is because they would then have to collect it themselves and justify it. Bit difficult when you "comrades" at top earn this kind of money:

Union: National Education Association
Dennis Van Roekel, received $397,721 in salary and benefits.

Union: Service Employees International Union
Membership: 1.8 million
Assets: $187 million
The former president, Andy Stern, was paid $306,388 in salary and benefits from the union in 2009.

Union: United Food & Commercial Workers
The president, Joseph T. Hansen, received $360,737 in pay and benefits in 2009.

Union: International Brotherhood of Teamsters
The president, James P. Hoffa, was paid $362,869 in pay and benefits.

Union: American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees
Gerald McEntee, who was first elected union president in 1981, was paid $479,328 in salary and benefits in 2009.


Union: Laborers’ International Union of North America
Terence O’Sullivan, union president since 2000, received $618,000 in salary and benefits in 2009.

Union: American Federation of Teachers
Randi Weingarten, who was elected president in 2008, received $428,284 in salary and benefits.

Union: International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
Edwin D. Hill, the union president since 2001, received $375,767 in pay and benefits.

Union: International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers
Robert Buffenbarger, who became president in 1997, received $284,975.

Union: United Automobile, Aerospace and Agricultural Implement Workers of America
Ronald Gettelfinger, who resigned as UAW president in 2010, was paid $173,065 in salary and benefits.

Nothing like looking after their "brothers and sisters". With all due respect Ladyfan you seem to have the rather picturesque outlook of a true believer.

Those salaries aren't really that exorbitant considering the amount of members in the unions that they represent. Those are the 300lbs gorillas in the union world, yet still, not exactly a lot of millionaires on that list.


Runole

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« #85 : April 07, 2011, 10:15:57 AM »

Couple of points:
I did get a great education in High School.  We had to take two languages usually Latin and either French, Spanish or German.  We had to take either Chem or Biology labs.  Math was Algebra one and two.  Geometry. Trig and Calculus for the brainy ones.  English reading, breaking down sentences, spelling and improving vocabularly.  We read Shakespere, Chaucer and some current literature.  Manhasset High School on Long Island is still one of the leading HS's in the nation with a classic, traditional curiculuum.  Today IT is added.  We had PE 3 times a week that was outdoors and rigorous. Social Studies, Geography and Environment rounded out rest of studies.  We had home work every night, tests every week and in our Freshman year we began taking SATs to find out weaknesses and work on them for 4 years for college.  New York State had regents exams which were considered minimum requirement for passing into next grade and not the be all and end all for teachers to be evaluated upon.  It was up to parents to make sure their children were on track for either college or trade school.  It was recognized that not everyone would like or benefit from college or could afford it.  If you wanted to make it, it was up to you and your family to make it happen.

I also got a good education in liberal arts and engineering university at Bucknell.  I majored in Philosophy and English with minor in Art.

Not to mention continuing to read all kinds of subjects rest of life.

Main infludences:  My family instilled a love of learning and respect for school and teacher.  I didn't learn to cut classes until college.  lol.  And I worked in Dining Hall for 4 years to pay for Room and Board.

I can see no fault whatsoever in this program.  We memorized stuff and we were creative with various programs.  Its a simple straight forward program.  People who wanted more sent their kids to prep school.


Good points  and that was all done on a Educational budget incredibly smaller than today with class sizes of around 30 or more at the secondary level at least in the public sector and students like yourself actually accomplished something.   Throwing money at education has never been the answer anymore than blaming everything on the instructor because all Jack and Jill do is breathe and pass gas in the classroom while texting to each other.


Personally, I seldom had homework and have never understood the crazy idea of attendance being tied to money received. Phys Ed should be every day along with many other extra curricula activities and NO the vast majority of Americans do not need to go to college unless they are truly serious about gaining a degree that actually will give them a job that will allow them to take care of themselves.


Runole

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« #86 : April 07, 2011, 10:20:50 AM »

Gov Scott will eventually be seen by most as a person with no vision just an appetite for nihistic destruction of the hopes and dreams of people who are not millionaires.  He has no respect for any other level of human being.  Money equals distinction, admiration and advantages given to.

He will make the Huns of Asia Minor look like Boy Scouts as he exercises his personal vendettas against those he think "did it to him" as he was growing up.
Whoever they may be and however his eccentric and sad view of life has evolved for him.

Pathetic man who bought his election and the men and women who go with the package.

No guessing where you voted then.

And Ladyfan, the only right a worker has is the right to quit if they want to. The rest is negotiated working practices.

Now, I do not disagree with the role of Unions as you more or less describe it, but, THEY seem to have forgotten that. Today they are more of an organization whose sole role is to get as much as it can and screw everybody else. That is where they lost the plot and is the reason why the likes of myself, who comes from a very working class background has lost total and utter respect for them. They are more interested in politics than they are in representing the people that pay their dues. Ever wondered why the biggest fights with Unions erupt when the fights gets to the automatic deduction of dues. This is because they would then have to collect it themselves and justify it. Bit difficult when you "comrades" at top earn this kind of money:

Union: National Education Association
Dennis Van Roekel, received $397,721 in salary and benefits.

Union: Service Employees International Union
Membership: 1.8 million
Assets: $187 million
The former president, Andy Stern, was paid $306,388 in salary and benefits from the union in 2009.

Union: United Food & Commercial Workers
The president, Joseph T. Hansen, received $360,737 in pay and benefits in 2009.

Union: International Brotherhood of Teamsters
The president, James P. Hoffa, was paid $362,869 in pay and benefits.

Union: American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees
Gerald McEntee, who was first elected union president in 1981, was paid $479,328 in salary and benefits in 2009.


Union: Laborers’ International Union of North America
Terence O’Sullivan, union president since 2000, received $618,000 in salary and benefits in 2009.

Union: American Federation of Teachers
Randi Weingarten, who was elected president in 2008, received $428,284 in salary and benefits.

Union: International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
Edwin D. Hill, the union president since 2001, received $375,767 in pay and benefits.

Union: International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers
Robert Buffenbarger, who became president in 1997, received $284,975.

Union: United Automobile, Aerospace and Agricultural Implement Workers of America
Ronald Gettelfinger, who resigned as UAW president in 2010, was paid $173,065 in salary and benefits.

Nothing like looking after their "brothers and sisters". With all due respect Ladyfan you seem to have the rather picturesque outlook of a true believer.

Those salaries aren't really that exorbitant considering the amount of members in the unions that they represent. Those are the 300lbs gorillas in the union world, yet still, not exactly a lot of millionaires on that list.


Good points  You have defined rather well the problems with Unions.

Personally, I like Scott because he actually is the first governor Florida has ever had that wants to treat the Government like a Business which I find refreshing!

That being said he made a mistake on giving money to the court system because they are financially strapped because there aren't enough foreclosure cases going on?  WTF?  That sounds like a non essential government job to me.  Time to cull out those not needed.


spartan

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« #87 : April 07, 2011, 11:29:12 AM »


Those salaries aren't really that exorbitant considering the amount of members in the unions that they represent. Those are the 300lbs gorillas in the union world, yet still, not exactly a lot of millionaires on that list.

If we were talking about CEO's I would agree with you, but we are not. We are talking about people who stand on their soap box and lecture us about "fairness", "fair share", "fortunate", "equality", "inequality', "millionaires and billionaires", "the rich" (earning less than them), call their colleagues "brother" or "comrade" then go home to what I am certain won't be a 1500sq ft townhouse.

CBWx2

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« #88 : April 07, 2011, 12:00:07 PM »


Those salaries aren't really that exorbitant considering the amount of members in the unions that they represent. Those are the 300lbs gorillas in the union world, yet still, not exactly a lot of millionaires on that list.

If we were talking about CEO's I would agree with you, but we are not. We are talking about people who stand on their soap box and lecture us about "fairness", "fair share", "fortunate", "equality", "inequality', "millionaires and billionaires", "the rich" (earning less than them), call their colleagues "brother" or "comrade" then go home to what I am certain won't be a 1500sq ft townhouse.

CEO's of fortune 500 companies actually earn about 5 times as much as most of these guys. And your description of the job they do is a bit lacking. But either way, their salaries are paid by Union dues. I don't see the Teamsters all up in a tizzy about how much James Hoffa makes. What does it matter to you what he makes? I guess what I'm trying to say is, what's the point of bringing up their salaries? The fact that they bring in 6 figure incomes means that they are somehow hypocrites for speaking out on behalf of workers rights? I don't see the logic behind that.


jbear

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« #89 : April 07, 2011, 02:26:35 PM »

Unions are needed to protect workers rights.  That's all.  Their rights include having schedules that only are convenient for company especially for part time workers putting iin up to 38 hours with no chance of getting any benefits.  Rights include getting paid time and a half for overtime especially on weekends and holidays.
Rights include being treated with dignity and having more than a 15 min break for every 4-6 hours of work especially if working on computers.  Rights include the right to protest being written up in writing. 

Today's workers are treated like cattle.  The current advantage that bosses have in the workplace ( ie being flooded with unemployed prospects) is reflected in degrading treatment verbally and inquality  assignments given out. Some workers are sometimes made to work 7 days and told if they don't come in Sun, don't come in Monday.  This is especially bizarre for t hose who have some knowledge of labor history.  The rallying cry when unions first ccame into being was against this very abuse and exact demand by corporations.

A couple points I'd like to make. 

Many who support unions seem to have an irrational fear of corporations or large employers.  We live in the internet age, which means the world is a lot smaller than it used to be.  There are no more corporate towns and robber barons because there isn't anywhere for them to hide.  The population as a whole is more educated than they were 100 years ago.  We have access to 24 hour news and carry camera's attached to phones wherever we go.  If we ever do have any issues with our employers it's not to difficult to find a sleazeball attorney to sue them for us.

My personal experience with working for six years for a non-unionized large employer was positive.  It was a large hotel and I was a supervisor on the Conventions floor.  They had a free cafeteria, and locker room. They had a laudry department that also washed all the employee's uniforms.  The Bigshots were plesent to the employees.  We knew when we signed onto the job that our hours were going to depend on the guests needs.  Sometimes we'd pull an 18 hour shift but we were paid overtime and we knew when those tough days were comming.  I feel like employees were treated pretty fairly overall.  There was an incident in my first year where two attendents that I was responsible for (both usually good workers) got into a fight at work.  I didn't see it but apparently only one punch was thrown that resulted in a broken nose.  Both employee's were sent home and terminated within a few days.  I could understand why the employee who didn't throw a punch was let go but I didn't really agree with it.  In any case the employee hired an attorney and within a month was back at work with back pay for time missed.  They didn't have to go to court, they just sent their greivence and the hotel reconsidered it's decision.  Everyone was glad to see the guy come back to work even some department heads congratulated him because we all knew that decisons are based on circumstances.  There is no evil robot in the sky kicking the working man in the ass for giggles.  It's just regular people trying to make the business successful.


The worst workers I ever saw was when a goup would bring in a unionized Audo visual company to do their show or meeting.  Not that they didn't know what they were doing but they had all kinds of strange rules about breaks or working too many hours in a row and they would always hold us up.  At the same time our favorite groups to host were the large unions because of the fat tips they'd leave for everyone when they left.  They were nice people too.   ;D

Gee, talking about that old job almost makes me miss working there, dead end job though it was.  Cattle I don't see Ladyfan.

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