Shaun King rips Gruden......Gruden responds.

[ryan24]

With Simms on the roster.....as the young guy who could be groomed....it's not hard to see where the conclusion was reached that they needed a running back more than a QB at the time. Who the ultimate decision maker was none of us have any idea. What we do "know" is that Simms didn't fit into the typical mold of a WCO QB that Gruden would normally prefer and that through media reports and some fairly public evidence that he was not really thought well of from the time of being drafted by Gruden that it's a little strange that the impetous for not drafting Rodgers or even taking a look...at least publicly...at Brees would have been something Gruden would have done if left to his own devices. That doesn't mean he didn't make the decision, just that it makes little sense.

I think recent history has made us think Brees was more of an elite free agent in 2006 than he was at the time. Remember he was largely ineffective for 3 years in San Diego before putting it all together out of nowhere in his fourth season. When you add in his shoulder injury at the time, there were only two teams even interested in him, Miami and New Orleans. Miami was considered to have first dibs and they turned him down. It's not like ten teams were flocking around him and tripping over themselves to sign him. Recall that same off season we pretended to be interested in Charles Woodson, even though we had serious cap problems and Ronde Barber and Brian Kelly already making a lot of money at that position, yet we didn't even sniff Brees. I'm not sure Gruden would have been hot for Brees in 2006 if left to his own devices.

I recall the injury being the main issue keeping teams away and not the ineffectiveness. From a makeup in terms of how he'd fit into a system such a what Gruden would use, it's hard to believe he wouldn't have had a pretty strong interest. Put simply....it's diffcult to believe that he'd prefer a QB with the skillset and makeup of Chris Simms over the same of Drew Brees. As I said....to me...the entire Simms saga in Tampa has never made any sense to me and I've always felt that there was something else going on that we are not privy to. I've wondered if Phil wasn't somehow in the middle of it with either one of the owner's son's or Allen or Gruden. At face value....never made sense.

[Feel Real Good]

With Simms on the roster.....as the young guy who could be groomed....it's not hard to see where the conclusion was reached that they needed a running back more than a QB at the time. Who the ultimate decision maker was none of us have any idea. What we do "know" is that Simms didn't fit into the typical mold of a WCO QB that Gruden would normally prefer and that through media reports and some fairly public evidence that he was not really thought well of from the time of being drafted by Gruden that it's a little strange that the impetous for not drafting Rodgers or even taking a look...at least publicly...at Brees would have been something Gruden would have done if left to his own devices. That doesn't mean he didn't make the decision, just that it makes little sense.

I think recent history has made us think Brees was more of an elite free agent in 2006 than he was at the time. Remember he was largely ineffective for 3 years in San Diego before putting it all together out of nowhere in his fourth season. When you add in his shoulder injury at the time, there were only two teams even interested in him, Miami and New Orleans. Miami was considered to have first dibs and they turned him down. It's not like ten teams were flocking around him and tripping over themselves to sign him. Recall that same off season we pretended to be interested in Charles Woodson, even though we had serious cap problems and Ronde Barber and Brian Kelly already making a lot of money at that position, yet we didn't even sniff Brees. I'm not sure Gruden would have been hot for Brees in 2006 if left to his own devices.

I recall the injury being the main issue keeping teams away and not the ineffectiveness. From a makeup in terms of how he'd fit into a system such a what Gruden would use, it's hard to believe he wouldn't have had a pretty strong interest. Put simply....it's diffcult to believe that he'd prefer a QB with the skillset and makeup of Chris Simms over the same of Drew Brees. As I said....to me...the entire Simms saga in Tampa has never made any sense to me and I've always felt that there was something else going on that we are not privy to. I've wondered if Phil wasn't somehow in the middle of it with either one of the owner's son's or Allen or Gruden. At face value....never made sense.

It is certainly odd that for 6-7 years real or perceived the Bucs were publicly in the mix for every QB in the draft, free agency, or trade, yet when Brees was available things were as silent as could be.

[Chief Joseph]

Gruden and Allen are the ones that killed the Bucs brand by building a team out of has-beens and nobodies that fans couldn't get behind because everyone knew they'd be gone or retired in 2 years.

This      ^^^^^^^^

Yes, this  ...is revisionist history.

Many of those "has-beens" were fan favorites and one of the things they cried the loudest about when they had to be let go. If anything, the previous regime held on to some of the legacy players for far too long.

[Hate]

It's funny how some wanted to run Gruden out of town just a YEAR after we won the Super Bowl, put the heat on and now conveniently forget that they did so. Unfortunately there's no way to prove it in a link, but for those of us who used to frequent bucs.com before this board became the better of the Buccaneer boards, it was OMNIPRESENT. The 2003 season wasn't even over before the Anti-Gruden barrage began and 2004 only made it worse. But not re-signing Thomas Jones and then drafting MC added to the mess. If TJ is here and has a good 2004, the Bucs never draft Caddy. If they draft S-Jax instead of MC, that happens too. And then the QB option comes into play more (or perhaps a defender like a Demarcus Ware). But the negative media and disloyal fanbase played a part in the poor decision making of the Gruden-Allen regime. Invariably they SHOULD be held accountable for their own errors and poor picks. But every front office reacts to some degree upon the climate in which they are cast. It's not just wins and losses, but perception.
This is why we need to move PAST the whole Gruden-Allen stuff. Can we just appreciate the good things happening now? More significantly, let's give this regime time. If we go 8-8 this year, it doesn't mean they're still great or that they're awful. Let it play out. And other than PR don't put much stock in local media angles. They really have done little to serve the interest of the Tampa-St. Pete area over the last seven or eight years.

Java, is that you?

[jerseybucsfan]

Yeah, I'm Java's evil twin, Mint Mocha.
Scone anyone?
But I don't seem to recall Java saying anything positive about the current regime. Like many of us, I had my doubts that Raheem would be even an average NFL coach. But right now it looks pretty good, doesn't it? You have to be optimistic. Forget what the last guys didn't do. Got my 5 shirt. Gonna get an MW jersey. Need someone to make a Been shirt/jersey.

[Hate]

Yeah, I'm Java's evil twin, Mint Mocha.
Scone anyone?
But I don't seem to recall Java saying anything positive about the current regime. Like many of us, I had my doubts that Raheem would be even an average NFL coach. But right now it looks pretty good, doesn't it? You have to be optimistic. Forget what the last guys didn't do. Got my 5 shirt. Gonna get an MW jersey. Need someone to make a Been shirt/jersey.

I fully embraced Raheeminik, just a I embraced Gruden. Never embraced Allen though..... and the fact that he's continued to pull the wool over people's eyes is amazes me. I just can buy into public being the reasonn for the team's woes....especially as early u portray it to be.

[MiltonMack21]

I don't think ripping on Gruden "divides" the fan base. The fan base is divided because some of the fan base started rooting for the Bucs because of Gruden. Problem is we just have some bad fans. I do somewhat wonder if there is some racism in it though.

[ryan24]

Gruden and Allen are the ones that killed the Bucs brand by building a team out of has-beens and nobodies that fans couldn't get behind because everyone knew they'd be gone or retired in 2 years.

This      ^^^^^^^^

Yes, this  ...is revisionist history.

Many of those "has-beens" were fan favorites and one of the things they cried the loudest about when they had to be let go. If anything, the previous regime held on to some of the legacy players for far too long.

The fanbase in Tampa Bay has always been awful at letting go. It's not exclusive to any one regime or even sport. Fans whined when Brad Culpepper and Dave Moore were let go fer christ sakes.

[nubcake]

Yeah, I'm Java's evil twin, Mint Mocha.
Scone anyone?
But I don't seem to recall Java saying anything positive about the current regime. Like many of us, I had my doubts that Raheem would be even an average NFL coach. But right now it looks pretty good, doesn't it? You have to be optimistic. Forget what the last guys didn't do. Got my 5 shirt. Gonna get an MW jersey. Need someone to make a Been shirt/jersey.

I fully embraced Raheeminik, just a I embraced Gruden. Never embraced Allen though..... and the fact that he's continued to pull the wool over people's eyes is amazes me. I just can buy into public being the reasonn for the team's woes....especially as early u portray it to be.

No, he's definitely right. Tampa's fanbase as a whole is absolutely atrocious, and you really don't have to look outside of the Bucs themselves. 9 out of 10 Bucs fans thought that Morris was a highschool coach halfway into the 3-13 season, that Dominik had no idea what he was doing, Freeman was a bust, the Glazers forgot the Bucs even existed, etc. To some extent most of us even bought into that a little bit, because the concept was EVERYWHERE. And despite Freeman showing a lot of potential near the end of that season and a great draft, most people in THIS AREA still had no hope. My 8-8 prediction fell short, but at the time I was considered a Kool-Aid drinker. People still thought Morris was awful despite the obvious improvement, Dominik was still being questioned strongly, and everyone still hated the Glazers. Oh, and the most successful team to start 10+ rookies in NFL history still couldn't sell out a single game. Only team in the NFL who couldn't. And if we struggle this coming season and go something like 8-8, no one will realize that the schedule got much tougher, they'll just assume that this year was a fluke and go right back to calling for Morris' head.

Same situation with the Rays. If you looked at their facebook page in the offseason, it was like watching a mental hospital learning how to use the internet. Some of the most unbelievably idiotic statements I've ever seen, and they were everywhere. People throwing a fit about not resigning Crawford, Pena, Soriano...all of which would have been terrible decisions considering the money they received from other teams, but none of them knew that. People clamoring about how Manny would ruin the roster and Damon was old and washed up and just a sad attempt to get people to buy tickets...nothing but negativity. About the team run by the best GM in MLB by FAR. But no one understood the ridiculous odds the Rays have to overcome every year, including rebuilding an entire bullpen in one offseason.

The area just constantly reeks of negativity and ignorance. Everyone has this sense of entitlement that all of our franchise should make the playoffs every year for 2 decades in a row like the Red Wings...and even that wouldn't be good enough, because they only have 4 Stanley Cups. And while I'm not sure jersey is entirely correct in suggesting that the local media or discussing previous coaches are to blame, he's definitely right about how negativity spreads. It's hard for anyone new to being a fan to remain positive when they go to a game and all they hear about is how cheap the Bucs or Rays are. And while I don't think discussing some of Gruden's faults is a bad thing, some of the hatred towards the guy is pretty ridiculous. I'm not saying we need to rush into every thread and defend his honor like Illuminator, but the guy did get us our only Super Bowl, and I certainly feel like he was always 110% committed to making the Bucs win. The fact that he made some critical mistakes along the way isn't really a valid reason to constantly bash the guy every time he's mentioned. Let's just appreciate the great potential we have now, appreciate the Super Bowl Gruden brought us, appreciate the team Dungy put together, ignore Java, and forget the rest. Debate, but don't hate.

[smove28]

I have never been a Gruden fan, but I have to admit his comment about King was funny

[jerseybucsfan]

Thanks nub. Well said.
Wear the shirts and jerseys often. REPRESENT. Encourage more Buc-oriented gatherings (like my one Bucs friend probably coming over for burgers for Thursday or Friday night draft fun). Open yourself to the possibility that Josh Freeman could be the best Bucs QB ever AND be a 10-year starter here. Raise the battleflags and dream of glory in December, January ... and maybe the first weekend of February. Get Bucs fever!

[Boid Fink]

King was a fat, noodle armed turd.  The Bucs defense was Death on other teams.

/end thread.

[michael89156]

King was a fat, noodle armed turd.  The Bucs defense was Death on other teams.

/end thread.

Gents, the B-man has spoken.