Freeman was the 2nd most pressured QB

[Feel Real Good]

It was stupid if you ask me that we did not upgrade the O Line in the draft.

Dominik and Morris inherited a team that, depending on how a few players with disciplinary trouble turn out, needed between 18-21 new starters. We've now had 3 drafts and 2 incredibly weak free agency classes. There just hasn't been enough time nor resources to fill all 18-21 of those spots.

[dbucfan]

It was stupid if you ask me that we did not upgrade the O Line in the draft.

I know right.  Sucked to watch round after round of frivolous wasted picks.  Screw BPA, oline was like the 3rd greatest need.  Should have taken a lineman in the 3rd round then (maybe 4th, but that's a stretch).  Not to mention all the day 1 starters we passed on in the last couple rounds.  Dom showing once again he's in way over his head.   

Blue is for sarcasm - for most you don't have to use it - in this instance - I would have

[dalbuc]

The sad thing is you'd like to toss all the new players under the bus but leading the parade of suck are high dollar & worthless Donald Penn and then right behind him the guy this team inexplicably wants to re-sign, Davin.

[dbucfan]

Naw, that isn't right dal.  I just have an aversion to smoke being blown up my butt.  I don't particularly like Penn, he just happens to be better than anyone else the bucs have.  I don't particularly care for Joseph - I just don't see the guy on the roster that is better.  I wish there was - just haven't seen it yet.  It would surely be nice to have better talent on the Oline - collectively and individually. 

[Skull and Bones]

We could of had James Brewer in the 4th.  He has the potential to be a stud RT.  Might even be able to play LT.  He's a little raw with only 2 years of starting experience in college, needs to play nastier , and had some injuries in the past but if the football gods could could create the perfect OT on a physical level he would look something like Brewer.  I like Stocker but JB fills a need as well and has a higher ceiling.  I wouldn't have traded up for the #2 TE.

[Feel Real Good]

Naw, that isn't right dal.  I just have an aversion to smoke being blown up my butt.  I don't particularly like Penn, he just happens to be better than anyone else the bucs have.  I don't particularly care for Joseph - I just don't see the guy on the roster that is better.  I wish there was - just haven't seen it yet.  It would surely be nice to have better talent on the Oline - collectively and individually.

Actually, the numbers indicate we do have players better than Joseph. Whenever he gets injured the Bucs' offense is more productive.

[bornnraisedwhodat]

LOL probably because Freeman has to be the hardest SOB to sack!! AS a Saints fan, I can tell u this 1st hand....this kid SCARES ME! All this talk about Matty Ice, Im worried about Josh Freeman. His 3rd year is going to be crazy good. I never saw a QB so hard to sack.

[Northern Rep]

I really wanted to see us upgrade the o-line as well but to some degree I agree with Dom and Rah. Hopefully it will be like a another draft with the line healthy. 

Additionally the way the draft fell was not conducive to us upgrading the line early imo. Carpenter and Watkins went in the first and Wisniewski,Franklin and Ijalana all went before us in the second. I wanted Moffit in the fourth but he went a round earlier. The only guys that I could see us taking early that fit value wise were Hudson and Reid and I wouldn't take them over Bowers and Foster.

[GameTime]

  He has the potential to be a stud RT.  Might even be able to play LT.  He's a little raw with only 2 years of starting experience in college, needs to play nastier , and had some injuries in the past but if the football gods could could create the perfect OT on a physical level he would look something like .... 

are you speaking of demar dotson?

[GameTime]

It was stupid if you ask me that we did not upgrade the O Line in the draft.

there were probably no OL that had accumulated enough community service and volunteer time to go along with their boy scout badges and character pins.

[dbucfan]

Naw, that isn't right dal.  I just have an aversion to smoke being blown up my butt.  I don't particularly like Penn, he just happens to be better than anyone else the bucs have.  I don't particularly care for Joseph - I just don't see the guy on the roster that is better.  I wish there was - just haven't seen it yet.  It would surely be nice to have better talent on the Oline - collectively and individually.

Actually, the numbers indicate we do have players better than Joseph. Whenever he gets injured the Bucs' offense is more productive.

So I have been told, and I recall it has been repeatedly - for a few years now.

Seems the GM, HC, OC, Oline coach need to be told.  Those guys get the benefit of knowing the calls, the players, the Defensive match-ups - you would think they would be on top of that.  Rumor is some of the bucs staff read this board.  Perhaps if they had the link to the services used to establish who the best players on each team by position they would get it right.  One site is a pay service - might want to include the price, surely it is less expensive than all the tapes and hours of review currently expended by the bucs and their staff.

[Feel Real Good]

Naw, that isn't right dal.  I just have an aversion to smoke being blown up my butt.  I don't particularly like Penn, he just happens to be better than anyone else the bucs have.  I don't particularly care for Joseph - I just don't see the guy on the roster that is better.  I wish there was - just haven't seen it yet.  It would surely be nice to have better talent on the Oline - collectively and individually.

Actually, the numbers indicate we do have players better than Joseph. Whenever he gets injured the Bucs' offense is more productive.

So I have been told, and I recall it has been repeatedly - for a few years now.

Seems the GM, HC, OC, Oline coach need to be told.  Those guys get the benefit of knowing the calls, the players, the Defensive match-ups - you would think they would be on top of that.  Rumor is some of the bucs staff read this board.  Perhaps if they had the link to the services used to establish who the best players on each team by position they would get it right.  One site is a pay service - might want to include the price, surely it is less expensive than all the tapes and hours of review currently expended by the bucs and their staff.

Don't forget the GM, HC, OC, and WR coach thought they should give Michael Clayton a $25 million contract, so everyone makes mistakes. The people that are with the players everyday can have very biased opinions based on each players' personality, leadership, work ethic, and things like that and can sometimes be blinded to their performance. Maybe Joseph is such a great guy and hard worker the team doesn't notice how useless he is during games? And I'm not referring to anything from PFF. I'm not a member now that they've started charging. It's as simple as this:

2008 weeks 1-4 with Zuttah at RG: 133.75 rushing yards per game

2008 weeks 5-17 with Joseph at RG: 108.5 rushing yards per game

2010 weeks 1-12 with Joseph at RG: 116.3 rushing yards per game

2010 weeks 13-17 with Hardman at RG: 144.4 rushing yards per game

[Feel Real Good]

  He has the potential to be a stud RT.  Might even be able to play LT.  He's a little raw with only 2 years of starting experience in college, needs to play nastier , and had some injuries in the past but if the football gods could could create the perfect OT on a physical level he would look something like .... 

are you speaking of demar dotson?

James Brewer

[dalbuc]

Seems the GM, HC, OC, Oline coach need to be told.  Those guys get the benefit of knowing the calls, the players, the Defensive match-ups - you would think they would be on top of that.  Rumor is some of the bucs staff read this board.  Perhaps if they had the link to the services used to establish who the best players on each team by position they would get it right.  One site is a pay service - might want to include the price, surely it is less expensive than all the tapes and hours of review currently expended by the bucs and their staff.

Thank god people never makes mistakes if they are professionals. It was rank amateurs that drafted Trueblood, Jackson and Colmer for example if I recall right. Our current admin wanted to go get Fat Albert which doesn't look like a very good idea now.  Let's not fall back on the fallacy of greater wisdom of "professionals" when it comes to talent evaluatuion since every personnel mistake in NFL history has been made by professionals not amateurs.

It might be the case if one person was ripping on Davin but dear god no one who watches him seems to think he's any good and there is a consistency to the fact that he has no impact/greater value than other linemen.  http://footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2011/debunking-three-tampa-bay-myths

Davin Joseph was drafted 23rd overall in 2006, made the Pro Bowl as an alternate after the 2008 season and by all accounts has been the best player on the Bucs O-line in the past 5 years. He's also a free agent who will likely command a high price on the free agent market. No one would blame you for thinking he had a great 2010 Season when on the field (he missed 5 games with an injury), but that's pretty far from the truth. Well, game charting tells me differently. To evaluate offensive linemen I'll use the 'blown blocks' metric, which simply measures the amount of times a lineman blew a one-on-one block that led to a QB pressure, a sack, a QB hit or a tackle for loss. This means stunts and blown assignments aren't counted, as it's hard to assign blame without knowing the assignments in those cases.

Davin Joseph was the worst Bucs guard by my count, blowing 14 blocks in 11 games started, or 1.3 blown blocks per game. Keydrick Vincent (who was cut midseason) blew blocks at a rate of 1.2 per game, rookie Derek Hardman blew 1.3 blocks per game, and surprisingly rookie Ted Larsen performed best, with just 0.9 blown blocks per game. Based on last year, Davin Joseph did not stand out among Bucs guards at all and doesn't warrant a big contract.

[MUSCLE_HAMSTER]

Next year's draft