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Coburn1

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#30 : May 21, 2011, 07:21:12 PM

Don't forget that our Bible itself says that they are wrong.

Well, it's definitely YOUR Bible and not mine. And your Bible features a talking snake and donkey and a man living inside of a whale. Sorry if I don't consider it a credible source.

And as far as me being open minded, Biggs? Sorry but I'm only open minded to a point. Millions of people are going to fly up into the sky and disappear because their beliefs are right and everybody else is wrong? Sorry but I'll never believe that. I could be wrong about anything but on this one, I'll bet the house that I'm not.

The Apostles believed Jesus could back during their lifetimes. Over two thousand years later and people are still waiting.

My interest is in the paranormal. And there's a lot of CRAP in that field, too. If there's no evidence for something, (no matter what it is) I'm not going to take it seriously. Now, if thousands of people told me that they saw people flying up into the sky and that their relatives were missing, I'd listen and hear them out.

Well there was over 500 people who reported seeing Jesus after he was executed. Such claims didn't get made lightly either.

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#31 : May 21, 2011, 07:34:06 PM

The biggest problem the Bible has is that Christians are inconsistant with it. There are many different interpretations. People can twist the words in the bible to say what they want it to say.

And also there are parts of the bible that Christians completely disregard and then other parts that they put full trust into. I mean in Leviticus, they will ignore the verse that says you can't shave your beard, but then accept the verse that bans homosexuality. That's inconsistancy. Who makes the decision on what to follow and what not to follow? Or how about the part that says its OK to sell your daughter into slavery? I mean if that part is ridiculous, what makes Genesis any more credible?

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#32 : May 21, 2011, 07:55:45 PM


But that's the best part. You get to pick and choose which parts you want to believe. Then, if anyone questions it, you can always point to the parts you've chosen to believe in and say "It's God's will."

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

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#33 : May 21, 2011, 07:57:37 PM

Did I miss it? I went to the store and thought I'd be back before 6 but a huge traffic jam, all these empty cars just abandoned in the middle of the road

You were Raptured to LA and the 405 Freeway?

John Galt?

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#34 : May 21, 2011, 08:02:31 PM

Did I miss it? I went to the store and thought I'd be back before 6 but a huge traffic jam, all these empty cars just abandoned in the middle of the road

You were Raptured to LA and the 405 Freeway?


I thought one was to be raptured to Heaven, LA and the 405 sounds more like a description straight out of Revelations of Hell.


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#35 : May 21, 2011, 08:21:17 PM

Well there was over 500 people who reported seeing Jesus after he was executed. Such claims didn't get made lightly either.

It's kind of hard to judge the credibility of an alleged witness from 2000 years ago. Are the names of these 500 people listed in the Bible? Were they interviewed about
such an amazing sighting? Kind of tough to say what, if anything, these people really saw.

You also believe that the bodies of dead people came out of their tombs and walked the streets? Is this recorded by any historians of the time?

Matthew 27:52-53

The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


Coburn1

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#36 : May 22, 2011, 03:08:31 AM

The biggest problem the Bible has is that Christians are inconsistant with it. There are many different interpretations. People can twist the words in the bible to say what they want it to say.

And also there are parts of the bible that Christians completely disregard and then other parts that they put full trust into. I mean in Leviticus, they will ignore the verse that says you can't shave your beard, but then accept the verse that bans homosexuality. That's inconsistancy. Who makes the decision on what to follow and what not to follow? Or how about the part that says its OK to sell your daughter into slavery? I mean if that part is ridiculous, what makes Genesis any more credible?

Well this is why it's always important for leadership in churches to not only know scripture but also have a knowledge of history and the culture at the time. From what I have been able to understand personally shaving of one's beard at the time was something pagan's typically did and wanted to be separated from that. Also you may have read in 1 Corinthians 11 about how women should have their heads covered and long hair is their glory and covers their head? Well at the time there was a widespread worship of the goddess Diana. There were temple prostitutes who shaved their heads. So you see you really do need to understand the reasoning behind such laws. Of course there are a lot of ritualistic laws that did exist which were not part of the new covenant as well. Peter had a dream where God told him all food was acceptable, Jesus himself said it wasn't what went into a man but what came out of his mouth. Also Paul made it clear circumcision wasn't a requirement anymore. While morale principles never changed the rituals did. Sacrifices weren't required anymore because Jesus fulfilled it. As for slavery, yes it's tough sometimes when you read about how it wasn't spoken against or banned. You also have to see the dilemma in doing so. There's no credit cards or bankruptcy then. The only way people ever repaid debt was in serving another. Should one decide to become a christian and suddenly be debt free without being responsible for what is owed? Is this really just or fair? While it was never banned there are many places in the Bible where it says that you should free yourself as soon as possible and recommends against enslaving yourself to another.

Anyways that's my rant. Take out of it what you will. The problem is that many outsiders look at a single verse and either don't look at the context or they don't know anything about the culture or the reasoning behind the scripture. I will admit it's not always easy and we may get a few interpretations wrong, sure, but just because it's complicated doesn't mean Jesus died for nothing or that the Bible is wrong. Also while we would like to know all the small details and be obedient in them, while Christians may not all agree 100% on some details, we do agree on our main belief.

And to JOE

I believe this was a time where false prophets were killed. False reports weren't take lightly, such people would also likely be killed and the false records destroyed. The disciples really didn't have anything to gain either. Most of them all died martyrs deaths eventually and continued to take their beliefs with them right to their deaths even thought they knew it would cost them. They were either all insane which it certainly doesn't sound like it or they were telling the truth.
: May 22, 2011, 03:12:37 AM Coburn1

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#37 : May 22, 2011, 04:56:44 AM

Has that Camping idiot issued a statement yet? I mean last time his excuse was he miscalculated. Maybe he forgot to carry a 1?


Chief Joseph

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#38 : May 22, 2011, 05:45:21 AM

I believe this was a time where false prophets were killed.

Clearly, you haven't thought this through.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

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#39 : May 22, 2011, 06:15:43 AM

As for slavery, yes it's tough sometimes when you read about how it wasn't spoken against or banned. You also have to see the dilemma in doing so. There's no credit cards or bankruptcy then. The only way people ever repaid debt was in serving another.

Wow, no money back then, either? It must have been a simpler time.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

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#40 : May 22, 2011, 11:38:35 AM

And to JOE

I believe this was a time where false prophets were killed. False reports weren't take lightly, such people would also likely be killed and the false records destroyed. The disciples really didn't have anything to gain either. Most of them all died martyrs deaths eventually and continued to take their beliefs with them right to their deaths even thought they knew it would cost them. They were either all insane which it certainly doesn't sound like it or they were telling the truth.

Yeah, it's really pointless to argue what happened 2000 years ago because there's no way to prove or disprove it. I'll take my chances in the afterlife, if one exists.

So, do you believe decaying bodies came out of the tombs and walked the streets of Jerusalem? If so, where is it recorded in any historian's writings? Or written down anywhere but the Bible? This would be a big deal.

Coburn1

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#41 : May 22, 2011, 01:01:24 PM

As for slavery, yes it's tough sometimes when you read about how it wasn't spoken against or banned. You also have to see the dilemma in doing so. There's no credit cards or bankruptcy then. The only way people ever repaid debt was in serving another.

Wow, no money back then, either? It must have been a simpler time.

Don't pretend like you don't understand what I'm getting at. Sure there was money but just like today people can get to a point where they are just not going to be in any position to pay anyone back. Hence the fact slavery was a last resort. Today people can just mount up dept til they're swimming in it and declare bankruptcy.

And also yes I did think that last one through. You think I'll deny that false prophets existed? Of course they did. The Bible even warns about them. My point was that if it was false, in this case if what the people claimed hadn't happened they wouldn't have lasted very long.

And Joe, yes i believe it happened. Maybe it is surprising it wasn't recorded in other historical documents but I thin most people would rather it not be revealed if anything. Not so much unlike how the roman emperor bribed the guards to say Jesus body had been stolen by grave robbers

Chief Joseph

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#42 : May 22, 2011, 01:10:21 PM


Well, smart prophets make their predictions for far in the future, so you won't know if they were a false prophet until well after they are gone. I suppose there were many false prophets put to death, just like you say. But, if a prophet was put to death, does that mean he was a false prophet?

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

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#43 : May 22, 2011, 04:24:35 PM

Because atheists are the ones that laugh at such ridiculous predictions and use it as proof to show religion is a joke.
I also appreciate how many proud atheists will use 'prophecies' from false teachers to 'disprove' the belief but give no credit when prophecy has been fulfilled.

Funny story.  There's no proof of a fulfilled prophecy in the history of human civilization.  An outstanding one, anyway.  I don't want to see a bunch of, "The sun will rise tomorrow"s as a rebuttal.

There's all kinds of profecies that were predicted and happened hundreds or thousands of years after. The most common being the many prophecies of Jesus being crucified multiple times thousands of years earlier.

Outside of the Bible?  Which ones?  Because any "prophecy" that I know of is just an early telling of the Jesus story involving some other deified contemporary figure.

We know historically regardless of who you believe he is that he was crucified.

What?  No we don't.  Outside of the Bible and one single guy, there's not even any proof that Jesus existed.  There are no records whatsoever of the existence of a man whose words changed the face of the world.  Go ahead and look.  I have.  There's nothing, no census, no record of birth, no monuments or plaques, no journal entries... nada.  I'm not even positive that there's first-hand testimony in the Bible.  Don't you find that kind of odd?

Keep in mind there was a prophecy specifically about the method being crucifiction hundreds of years before crucifiction ever became a method used to even execute people.

Again, which ones?  Herodotus, if I'm not mistaken, was the first person to record details of a crucifixion about 600 years before Christ died.  I'd be interested to see prophecies about a man being nailed to a cross that don't appear in the Bible.

Perhaps a most recent event would be hit home a bit more. It was predicted way back before Christ in the old testament that Israel would be split for a long time but eventually would become a nation again in one day and that the people spread across many nations would be brought back. This happened after world war 2 and it literally did become a nation in one single day.

A literal reading says that Israel would've risen 430 years after it was destroyed.  It was almost 1000 years after that.  If you extend the timeline of almost any prophecy, it will fulfill itself.

For example, Ezekiel also said that the rivers of Egypt will dry up.  Hasn't happened yet.  However, if some completely explainable geological occurrence caused them to dry up -- an earthquake or something -- I'm sure everyone'll be freaking out about how God did it.

It doesn't make it a fulfilled prophecy.


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#44 : May 22, 2011, 04:47:27 PM

I was severely tempted to take an old outfit on to the main road and lay it out with a pair of shoes and see the reaction.  now that would have been fun.
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