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Biggs3535

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#30 : May 28, 2011, 09:06:01 PM

Without going through the list tax-by-tax, I know there are a few that existed pre-20th century.  The major one I see is the Federal Income Tax, which started with the Civil War.

But the vast majority are within the last 100 years.


dbucfan

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#31 : May 28, 2011, 09:22:06 PM

And the Federal Income tax has had it's issues - having been found unconstitutional then re-established in early in the 20th century.  Became a whole new issue when withholding tax became a fact in 1940 something.  One could say the Federal Income tax is over 100, with a pretty good argument saying 1913 was inception (decided to look it up.)

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

CBWx2

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#32 : May 29, 2011, 06:31:17 AM

Feel free to mark the taxes from the list that are over one hundred years old.

Corporate Income Tax - First established in 1894.
Excise Taxes - Were first established during colonial times.
Federal Income Tax - First established in 1861.
Inheritance Tax - States began implementing this tax in the 1880's. Teddy Roosevelt implemented the first federal inheritance tax in 1906.
Luxury Taxes - Were first established during colonial times.
Hunting and Fishing - The Federal govt. only regulates migratory birds and endangered species, which began in 1871. States began implementing licensing requirements for hunting and fishing in the 19th century.
Real Estate Taxes - Were first established during colonial times.
Marriage License Tax - States began requiring marriage licenses in the mid-1800's.

Also, many of the taxes on the list actually qualify under other taxes on the list, for example, tobacco and liquor taxes qualify as luxury taxes, therefor, there was no need for the writer to list them separately, unless the intent was to make a longer looking list.

And just for grins and giggles, why don't you identify the ones from the list that reflect where a large corporation might have cost the 'average Joe' leading to 'average Joe' getting a raw deal.

That comment wasn't directed at any specific tax on the list, rather at the notion that only politicians are to blame for the growing national debt and the diminished middle class. The writer may suggest that all of these taxes somehow play a role in both, but good luck substantiating that.


dbucfan

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#33 : May 29, 2011, 07:34:25 AM

Feel free to mark the taxes from the list that are over one hundred years old.

Corporate Income Tax - First established in 1894.
Excise Taxes - Were first established during colonial times.
Federal Income Tax - First established in 1861.
Inheritance Tax - States began implementing this tax in the 1880's. Teddy Roosevelt implemented the first federal inheritance tax in 1906.
Luxury Taxes - Were first established during colonial times.
Hunting and Fishing - The Federal govt. only regulates migratory birds and endangered species, which began in 1871. States began implementing licensing requirements for hunting and fishing in the 19th century.
Real Estate Taxes - Were first established during colonial times.
Marriage License Tax - States began requiring marriage licenses in the mid-1800's.

Also, many of the taxes on the list actually qualify under other taxes on the list, for example, tobacco and liquor taxes qualify as luxury taxes, therefor, there was no need for the writer to list them separately, unless the intent was to make a longer looking list.

And just for grins and giggles, why don't you identify the ones from the list that reflect where a large corporation might have cost the 'average Joe' leading to 'average Joe' getting a raw deal.

That comment wasn't directed at any specific tax on the list, rather at the notion that only politicians are to blame for the growing national debt and the diminished middle class. The writer may suggest that all of these taxes somehow play a role in both, but good luck substantiating that.
Only the government can spend the money and create/continue/increase taxes - there was no mention of a diminished middle class so there is not need to follow the red herring.  The spending is clearly what the author was identifying.  The taxes a means to spending.  He allowed for no excuses - i.e. lobbyists.  He is among the group looking for Americans who understand spending it the issue, and taxes are the means. 

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

John Galt?

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#34 : May 29, 2011, 12:09:13 PM

I'd also like to point out that while the politicians deserve a lion share of the blame, it's important not to absolve the factors that drive many of them to legislate the way that they do. Behind just about every law are bill where the average Joe got a raw deal, you can probably find a money trail that leads to the bank account of a large corporation that lobbied to make it happen.


And the writer did clearly address that:

Quote
Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like "the economy," "inflation," or "politics" that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.


Lobbyists and corporations aren't elected by us to represent us, Congress is. Lobbyists and Corporations don't take an oath, Congress does. No Corporation or lobbyist or special interest has ever campaigned and promised to represent the people's interests or promised to uphold our ideals, every Congressman does.


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#35 : May 29, 2011, 08:38:25 PM

"Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power."

The lobbyists are the reason they appoint the bureaucrats and regulators that they do. To leave them blameless is to "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." As I said, they deserve the lion share of the blame. But the problem is that our system enables the type of corruption that currently exists in our government. To simply blame the people there now with no acknowledgement that the system is what really needs to be fixed is basically just setting the stage for us to vote out the guys that are there now only to replace them with guys that are going to take advantage of the same system. How long has campaign finance reform been on the agenda in Washington? How often has it even been among the top 5 things that Americans have been concerned about? Yet it is probably the biggest problem that leads to the type of corruption we see. If it didn't cost millions and millions of dollars to fund an election, you wouldn't have a congress and white house full of individuals that go in having to legislate to keep their donors happy. Maybe then, they would actually try to keep their constituents happy instead.


dbucfan

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#36 : May 30, 2011, 07:49:22 AM

 You understand the author of the quote is saying don't let the 545 shift the responsibility - right?

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

Morgan

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#37 : May 30, 2011, 09:53:25 AM



DIdn't realize PR.com allowed this kind of repulsive picture.

dbucfan

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#38 : May 30, 2011, 10:03:24 AM

How flippin' convenient - see how it works CBW - first you enable them - then they loot you.  So, it is the enabler (i.e. the 545) or the looter?

http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/05/top-obama-health-aide-cashes-out-after-health-reform

POLITICS
Top Obama health aide cashes out after health 'reform'

By: Timothy P. Carney 05/29/11 8:05 PM
Senior Political Columnist Follow Him @TPCarney

U.S. President Barack Obama is applauded after signing the Affordable Health Care for America Act during a ceremony with fellow Democrats in the East Room of the White House March 23, 2010 in Washington, DC. (Photo by Win McNamee/Getty Images)
An Obama appointee who played a central role in crafting the 2010 health care bill has cashed out to a well-connected lobbying firm, where her first clients are two of the bill's beneficiaries: abortion provider Planned Parenthood and a hospital chain.
Liz Engel was deputy assistant secretary for legislation at the Department of Health and Human Services. Today she is a managing director at the Glover Park Group in the health and wellness practice. Her story further highlights the coziness of this administration with the abortion industry, and also undermines President Obama's portrayal of the health care bill as a broadside against special interests.

Most importantly, Engel's spin through the revolving door shows the emptiness of the new ethics rules that the White House brags about at every opportunity.

Engel was already an accomplished private-sector lawyer in 2007 when she came to the Democratic Senate Policy Committee to serve as "health policy adviser." After the 2008 election, she joined Obama's transition team, working on the health care policy working group.

According to her bio on the Glover Park Group website, her job there was "conducting outreach on behalf of the health care policy working group to trade associations, businesses, unions and advocacy organizations." In other words, she helped persuade industries to support Obama's plan. In the end, the drug lobby, the doctor lobby, and the hospital lobby all backed the bill -- and, of course, so did Planned Parenthood.

Engel's boss at the task force was former Sen. Tom Daschle, a consultant at the lobbying firm Alston & Bird, where he had health care clients. Engel's task-force colleagues included former Daschle staffer Mark Childress, a health care lobbyist at the well-connected firm Foley Hoag.

Daschle's nomination to head HHS flamed out, but Childress became chief of staff at the department. Engel was one of his first hires.

She served two years as HHS's lobbyist on Capitol Hill, leaning on her former Hill colleagues. Her focus, according to her current K Street employers, was "Medicare, Medicaid and other critical issues related to health reform."

In March, Engel jumped to the Democrat-heavy Glover Park Group. It was another episode in what I call "The Great Health Care Cashout." Of the congressional aides who played central roles in crafting the health care bill, a handful have already gone to work for drug companies or lobbying firms that represent health care companies.

In fact, two Democratic congressmen who delivered key support for the bill -- Reps. Earl Pomeroy of North Dakota and Bart Stupak of Michigan -- have gone to K Street to represent health care companies during the implementation stage of the subsidy-and-regulation-laden bill.

Engel's very first lobbying client, according to the Lobbying Disclosure Act database, was Planned Parenthood, for whom she lobbied on "matters relating to health reform." Also on Glover Park's Planned Parenthood account is another Obama administration alumnus, Grant Leslie (also a former Daschle aide), and former Arlen Specter health care adviser John Myers, another participant in the Great Health Care Cashout.

Planned Parenthood, a close ally of the Democratic Party, lobbied fiercely to strike the provisions in the House bill (inserted by Stupak) that would have prevented the bill from subsidizing abortion coverage. The administration successfully fought to save the subsidies for Planned Parenthood and the rest of the abortion industry. Now Planned Parenthood is paying two of the bill's authors -- Myers and Engel. (Engel's second client is a nonprofit hospital chain.)

This is exactly the sort of unsavory Beltway mess candidate Obama ran against, and which President Obama claimed he was addressing with a Day One executive order containing what he called a "revolving door ban." The order prohibits Engel from lobbying senior administration officials for the rest of Obama's presidency, but it allows her to lobby her old congressional colleagues -- the same people the taxpayers paid her to lobby on behalf of HHS.

The Great Health Care Cashout in which Engel is the latest big winner shows the toothlessness of Obama's ethics policies, but it's also further evidence of how Obamacare represented a big victory for the big health care providers and their lobbyists -- contrary to Obama's talk of "taking on the special interests."

Big government greases the revolving door. Had Congress passed a reform reducing the role of government in health care, companies would have less need for the consulting and lobbying work of folks like Engel, Daschle, Myers and the others who shaped the legislation.

Charity demands we assume no bad motives of the revolving door health care reformers. But prudence demands that we follow their movements.

Timothy P.Carney, The Examiner's senior political columnist, can be contacted at tcarney@washingtonexaminer.com. His column appears Monday and Thursday, and his stories and blog posts appear on ExaminerPolitics.com.



Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/05/top-obama-health-aide-cashes-out-after-health-reform#ixzz1NqPGeXKc

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

Biggs3535

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#39 : May 30, 2011, 10:41:13 AM



DIdn't realize PR.com allowed this kind of repulsive picture.

There are plenty of boards for teenagers on the internet if this is too mature for you.  You might, and I will emphasize might, be able to keep up with the conversations on those boards a little better as well.  Win/win for everybody.


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#40 : May 30, 2011, 11:17:11 AM

DIdn't realize PR.com allowed this kind of repulsive picture.

And do you cry just as loud when Palin is being depicted as a Nazi, or are you a bit of a hypocrite?

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

CBWx2

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#41 : May 30, 2011, 11:19:57 AM

How flippin' convenient - see how it works CBW - first you enable them - then they loot you.  So, it is the enabler (i.e. the 545) or the looter?

http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/05/top-obama-health-aide-cashes-out-after-health-reform

I haven't seen this story reported by any major news source. Only by conservative news sources or by conservative op-ed'rs. I couldn't even find an article where Fox News was even talking about this, and surely, they have ample interest in making the President's administration look bad. This leaves me to believe that this is just a conservative smear campaign. But even if it's not just a smear job. Even if this is just as poignant an example of corruption as the writer suggests, it still does not change my point.

You think the Obama Administration is corrupt? Maybe. But guess what, so was the Bush administration. I'm sure you could dig up examples of how the Clinton administration was as well. Then of course, I could show you how  H.W. Bush, Reagan, and so on had the same kind of things going on in their administrations. You pick your president, and I can give you an example of foul play. At what point do we stop making this about individuals and start to realize that they are simply playing the game by the rules that are in place. You change the rules, you change the outcome.

The issue still remains, there could be real campaign finance reform and real lobbying reform if the American public demanded it. Problem is, they never do. So what happens? You replace one corrupt administration for another one.


Chief Joseph

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#42 : May 30, 2011, 11:35:23 AM


Surely you're not telling us that "Hope/Change" was just one big lie? I'm aghast!

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Chief Joseph

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#43 : May 30, 2011, 11:38:10 AM

At what point do we stop making this about individuals and start to realize that they are simply playing the game by the rules that are in place...  You replace one corrupt administration for another one.

Didn't this administration campaign on the promise of changing that?


Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

dbucfan

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#44 : May 30, 2011, 11:45:08 AM

First off - I believe the author is the Washington Examiner.  And that was the point of the article that OBD posted.  Congress and the Administration - along with the Supreme Court - could stop the nonsense - if they wanted to.

I agree - this type of conduct has indeed crossed the lines of administrations, congresses and SC changes.  You appear to be arguing that is some sort of defense.  That is ludicrous - foul play within Congress, the Administration and the Court.  It enables - but the origin of the responsibility/guilt is within those passing, implementing and judging - which again is the point of the article.

as for other sources - http://www.gloverparkgroup.com/our-team/elizabeth-engel/

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant
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