Our OT's -- Not Good

[Biggs3535]

1. Really? please find examples......thats what you do right? I think Joseph is good with the potential to be much better. Hes inconsistent and thats what keeps him from being great. Hes been surrounded by average, inconsistent playes as well in Faine, Trueblood, Zuttah, and Lee. Pretty sure those are facts and not excuses. Josephs biggest problem is being consistent. He can blow guys up for a stretch, and then a guy will just blow right past him.

Maybe we need to stop making excuses for Joseph like his supporting cast.  The bucket of crap playing next to Carl Nicks isn't stopping him from playing well.

2. Zutah is top 7 in the NFL is pass blocking? LMAO, that may be the best part of his game, but hes not top 10.

Then go ahead and list 10 better pass-blocking centers.

Zuttah is pretty high on the list simply because most Centers aren't finesse players like he is.  He comes from Guard and even a little Tackle in college.  Pass protection is what he's good at.  Most Centers best attribute is mauling in the middle.  Zuttah isn't good at that, but he is pretty good at protection.

3. for the 500th time, PFF admits that they dont know the play calls and protection calls, therefore discrepencies or inaccuracies exist. How is that vague? Its almost verbatim to what PFF has said. Its been quoted from their site here on the boards before.

Who gives a crap if you, I, or anyone else knows what the playcall is?  This point has been blown up a million times on this forum for the defenders of Ruud, Penn, Joseph, and any other player this weak excuse is used for.  If a LT stops a DE in his tracks, he wins.  If the DE runs right over the LT, he wins.  This isn't as hard as you people want to make it out to be.  The plays where they are protection scheme questions aren't even graded.  If it's questionable, they don't grade that play.

And directly from their website on their grading:

A) DON’T GUESS — If you’re not 95 percent sure what’s gone on then don’t grade the player for that play. The grades must stand up to scrutiny and criticism, and it’s far better to say you’re not sure than be wrong.

Seems fair enough to me.

[tatmanfish]

1. Really? please find examples......thats what you do right? I think Joseph is good with the potential to be much better. Hes inconsistent and thats what keeps him from being great. Hes been surrounded by average, inconsistent playes as well in Faine, Trueblood, Zuttah, and Lee. Pretty sure those are facts and not excuses. Josephs biggest problem is being consistent. He can blow guys up for a stretch, and then a guy will just blow right past him.

PFF obviously feels other players in the league are more consistent and thus get higher rankings. The rankings aren't for who has the highest ceiling or who can occasionally make awesome plays; they're for who is the best player on a per play basis.

Im not disputing their info of Joseph. I gave my opinon of joseph because Biggs seems to think Im making excuses. Joseph is a better run blocker than pass blocker and thats not a secret or some revelation.

why do you two keep putting words in my mouth. I typed what i meant, there was no underlying intention or tone.

[tatmanfish]

I AM NOT SAYING AT ALL THE BUCS O-LINE IS BEING MIS REPRESENTED AS FAR AS NOT BEING GREAT!

what is so freaking hard to get? seriously, i cant say I dont use PFF as anything but reference because there are onconsistencies in their ratings? I dont think its fair to ANY player in the NFL as there is room for large errors.

[tatmanfish]

i get it now, general statements are considered excuses......i must have missed this somewhere, carry on then.

[Feel Real Good]

What are you even arguing, then? It seems you agree with PFF's rankings. I'm sure every poorly rated player has reasons for being rated poorly. Flozell Adams got signed by Pittsburgh right before the season started and switched from the left side to right. But that doesn't mean he didn't grade poorly.

And just because a player comes in toward the end doesn't mean they're completely useless. There's only one Sean Mahan. Most of the poorly rated players have their positive moments. But when you do lists, someone has to come in last. You've probably heard the expression, What do they call the last person to graduate from medical school? Doctor. Davin Joseph is still a NFL player. There are just a lot of other NFL players who are better than him.

[tatmanfish]

I look at players I have seen play ofeten and can at least form a decent opinion on reference to PFF. Some guys I can see why they are rated where they are and others make no sense.

add in the fact thats these stats arent put into any context. Thing like facing a bunch of teams with no pass rush from week 10 on with the exception of the Ravens and Falcons. A lot of those same teams werent so good against the run either. So when you bring up stats like the fact that Blount was more effective towards the end of the year in an argument to argue what O-linemen is better make them pretty incomplete in there evaluations. Simply looking at a HBs results behing different linemen doesnt show anything relative once you realize the quality of opponent matters as well.

All of these #s are lacking any sort of context. Therefor I wont just accept Joseph is the 7th worst or whatever he has ranked just as much as I wont accept there 7th best was the 7th best. These are just interesting tidbits of info they compiled but people want to use it to back up their opinion even though in the scheme of things(opponents stregnths and weaknesses) hold very little water.

[dbucfan]

You are using the PFF data to try to convince others that the bucs Oline is historically dreadful.

Link? I never  spoke of this Bucs line in historic terms. They stink, but there's nothing historic about them, other than them stinking for over a decade. Washington had a bottom 15 left tackle, bottom 15 right tackle, and two bottom 20 guards; Tennessee had a bottom 15 left tackle, bottom 20 guard, and bottom 10 center; Pittsburgh had a bottom 15 right tackle, bottom 20 guard, and bottom 10 center; Oakland had a bottom 15 left tackle, bottom 15 right tackle, and bottom 20 guard; and so on.

I didn't say epic - I said historic - as in "other than them stinking for over a decade."

So are you saying the Bucs offensive line play hasn't been poor for a long time? Do you wear Kenyatta Walker and Cosey Coleman jerseys on weekends? Were you a big George Hegamin fan? Sean Mahan?

I love a sarcastic comment in the middle of a conversation.  Perhaps you should stop being a part of the conversation.  The issue is PFF Vs the buccaneer staff.  The buccaneer staff has made a decision three year running that they like the majority of the line, until they have someone better to replace them.  They went in other directions where they perceived a greater need.  At some point they will look for better starters or depth - some folks will improve others will not, or even regress. 

In the interim did you note the latest article on Penn.  Did you notice Scott's comment.  Did you listen to the "answers' download - did you hear where the bucs have made a decision based upon their evaluations of their players.  Did you hear Scott explain the need the bucs staff seems to require, i.e. knowing the calls, the assignments, and then they make their performance calls. 

Now you like and trust PFF - everyone else need not to - but you regularly try to shove their evaluations down folks throats, and seem both unwilling or unable to conceive others might not have the confidence in PFF you have.  That is fine.  But being too stubborn and high-minded can be a problem.  Now I have said my piece - and you will surely have the last word on the topic in this thread insofar as I am concerned. 

[Feel Real Good]

Now you like and trust PFF - everyone else need not to - but you regularly try to shove their evaluations down folks throats, and seem both unwilling or unable to conceive others might not have the confidence in PFF you have.  That is fine.  But being too stubborn and high-minded can be a problem.  Now I have said my piece - and you will surely have the last word on the topic in this thread insofar as I am concerned.

I don't think I'm pushing anything down anyone's throat. If someone disagrees, fine, but this is a discussion board and I'd like to discuss why so many people disagree. So far JC is the only poster to say any Bucs players are better than what PFF says. Everyone else just says PFF doesn't know what they're talking about, but none have pointed out any players that Penn, Joseph, Faine, Trueblood, or Larsen are better than. That shouldn't be too difficult if their rankings are as inaccurate as people feel.