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CBWx2

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#15 : June 13, 2011, 02:41:56 PM

and now the curveball...   

Was it coaching?

Will Pat Morris fix this?   

(muhahaha...)

It may be just me, but I was never impressed with Pete Mangurian in the slightest. His firing was a year too late IMO. People say he worked wonders with Ted Larsen and James Lee, but the drop off in performance from Joseph, Trueblood, Faine, Penn, and ever Zuttah to a certain extent was noticeable. I do think coaching can and will fix a lot of that. Another thing that will fix it is having Blount learn the protections so having him in or out doesn't telegraph the play as much as it did in 2010.


dalbuc

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#16 : June 13, 2011, 03:11:19 PM

So we're back to the PFF conspiracy against the Bucs, huh?  Why are the Bucs OL graded differently by PFF than every other team in the NFL?  Did Donald Penn, Davin Joseph, Jeremy Trueblood, Jeff Faine and company gangbang their girls or something?


In the end the problem with OL "watchers" is that most of the time OL's don't blow it. I think people expect awful OL to get lit every play. Rough math - out of 590 snaps Penn's bad plays amounted to around 90 so if you watch him 500 pays will look ok.  This is why the "I know what i see" types can't really properly evaluate.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

BuccaNova

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#17 : June 13, 2011, 03:26:55 PM

How long do you think Freeman is going to be able to keep this up?

Rewatched the NFL Replay 90m version of the creamsicle atl game today and you're right. Free made an awful lot of impressive individual-effort scrambles and stalls...but he really had to. On -like- every play.  Good thing he is too dam big because he has to do all his downfield lookin' on the run.


JC5100

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#18 : June 13, 2011, 03:44:39 PM

In the end the problem with OL "watchers" is that most of the time OL's don't blow it. I think people expect awful OL to get lit every play. Rough math - out of 590 snaps Penn's bad plays amounted to around 90 so if you watch him 500 pays will look ok.  This is why the "I know what i see" types can't really properly evaluate.

But Khaled Elsayed is THE expert?

bradentonian

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#19 : June 13, 2011, 04:22:00 PM

In the end the problem with OL "watchers" is that most of the time OL's don't blow it. I think people expect awful OL to get lit every play. Rough math - out of 590 snaps Penn's bad plays amounted to around 90 so if you watch him 500 pays will look ok.  This is why the "I know what i see" types can't really properly evaluate.

But Khaled Elsayed is THE expert?

I think Football Outsiders have a similar view


dalbuc

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#20 : June 13, 2011, 04:28:54 PM

I think Football Outsiders have a similar view


Again as someone mentioned earlier if there was no connection with reality you ask questions. Thing is anyone who looks at performance metrics comes to the same conclusion about our OL so it isn't just the PFF vendetta that only exists vs the Bucs OL.

Heck, if you are paying attention and know what to look for you can see how suck our OL is.

All posts are opinions in case you are too stupid to figure that out on your own without me saying it over and over.

Feel Real Good

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#21 : June 13, 2011, 04:30:17 PM

So we're back to the PFF conspiracy against the Bucs, huh?  Why are the Bucs OL graded differently by PFF than every other team in the NFL?  Did Donald Penn, Davin Joseph, Jeremy Trueblood, Jeff Faine and company gangbang their girls or something?


In the end the problem with OL "watchers" is that most of the time OL's don't blow it. I think people expect awful OL to get lit every play. Rough math - out of 590 snaps Penn's bad plays amounted to around 90 so if you watch him 500 pays will look ok.  This is why the "I know what i see" types can't really properly evaluate.
Exactly. If a given team throws the ball 590 times over a season, and a lower-rated offensive tackle like Penn has 90 bad plays per season, a better offensive tackle may only have 60 bad plays. So if you break it down per an individual game, that's 37 pass attempts and Penn would have two more bad plays than a better player. For a regular fan, that's a pretty small difference and barely noticable.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

Feel Real Good

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#22 : June 13, 2011, 04:31:43 PM

In the end the problem with OL "watchers" is that most of the time OL's don't blow it. I think people expect awful OL to get lit every play. Rough math - out of 590 snaps Penn's bad plays amounted to around 90 so if you watch him 500 pays will look ok.  This is why the "I know what i see" types can't really properly evaluate.

But Khaled Elsayed is THE expert?
Do you know anyone who attempts to grade every play of every game for every team and views Penn much more favoably? And, no, Warren Sapp and Mike Lombardi don't grade every play of every game for every team.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

BTownBucFan

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#23 : June 13, 2011, 05:17:43 PM

holy flurking schmidt!  How can anyone defend that o-line last year?  I understand there where some young guys out there, but overall even our so called starters (Penn, Trublood, Faine) were bad imo.  That article only backs-up what many of us saw with our own eyes.   

JC5100

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#24 : June 13, 2011, 05:23:52 PM

In the end the problem with OL "watchers" is that most of the time OL's don't blow it. I think people expect awful OL to get lit every play. Rough math - out of 590 snaps Penn's bad plays amounted to around 90 so if you watch him 500 pays will look ok.  This is why the "I know what i see" types can't really properly evaluate.

But Khaled Elsayed is THE expert?
Do you know anyone who attempts to grade every play of every game for every team and views Penn much more favoably? And, no, Warren Sapp and Mike Lombardi don't grade every play of every game for every team.

Just because they're the only ones who do this (by the way, doing it without both endzone view and the play is useless, let alone them being amateurs) doesn't mean they're right.

When Penn dominates a DE and Freeman completes a big play or when he obliterates a defender and Blount cruises into the endzone nobody says ANYTHING. But if Freeman has to move around it's the end of the world and Penn sucks. Isn't this the same website that ranked Stylez White as a top 5 4-3 DE in 2009? Yea they really know what they're looking at it.

JC5100

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#25 : June 13, 2011, 05:26:35 PM

holy flurking schmidt!  How can anyone defend that o-line last year?  I understand there where some young guys out there, but overall even our so called starters (Penn, Trublood, Faine) were bad imo.  That article only backs-up what many of us saw with our own eyes.

Right. The OL sucked soooooooo bad that Freeman threw 25 and 6 and Blount averaged 5.0 ypc.With an average OL I suppose Freeman would have thrown 40 and 0 and Blount would have averaged 7.6 ypc.

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#26 : June 13, 2011, 05:34:21 PM

So we're back to the PFF conspiracy against the Bucs, huh?  Why are the Bucs OL graded differently by PFF than every other team in the NFL?  Did Donald Penn, Davin Joseph, Jeremy Trueblood, Jeff Faine and company gangbang their girls or something?

Maybe, just maybe your definition of "stonewalled" and "throwing around" don't match-up to what other people would consider those things.

PFF openly admits that they use a best guesstimate system with many of their grades. The say they dont know all the protection and play calls and that they dont know the assignments. They use best judgement to come with many of their equations. Thats why I always say take their assesments with a grain of salt. Their numbers could be relevant or they could be completely off. more of a fun reference site, not really something to use to form a concrete opinion.

Thats said, the entire line is inconsistent. Every single guy on that line has looked like a probowler for a game or two and then looked like a 2nd string player for a game or two. Penn has handled guys like Ware, but hes also been owned by nobodys. Same goes for every guy on the line. If they could all play consistent, they would actually be a pretty damn good line. Not sure what the problem is, but I guess they could start replacing them one guy at a time until they see results.
: June 13, 2011, 05:38:01 PM tatmanfish



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You were simply too smart for me.

Feel Real Good

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#27 : June 13, 2011, 06:59:03 PM

holy flurking schmidt!  How can anyone defend that o-line last year?  I understand there where some young guys out there, but overall even our so called starters (Penn, Trublood, Faine) were bad imo.  That article only backs-up what many of us saw with our own eyes.

Right. The OL sucked soooooooo bad that Freeman threw 25 and 6 and Blount averaged 5.0 ypc.With an average OL I suppose Freeman would have thrown 40 and 0 and Blount would have averaged 7.6 ypc.
That's because of Freeman and Blount. According to PFF, Freeman was the 5th best QB at avoiding sacks and Blount was the #1 RB in breaking tackles. (Carnell Williams was also top 10 in broken tackles.) If you're going to give the OL credit for those performances, do you likewise blame them for Freeman throwing 10 and 18 in 2009?

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

Feel Real Good

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#28 : June 13, 2011, 07:04:59 PM

In the end the problem with OL "watchers" is that most of the time OL's don't blow it. I think people expect awful OL to get lit every play. Rough math - out of 590 snaps Penn's bad plays amounted to around 90 so if you watch him 500 pays will look ok.  This is why the "I know what i see" types can't really properly evaluate.

But Khaled Elsayed is THE expert?
Do you know anyone who attempts to grade every play of every game for every team and views Penn much more favoably? And, no, Warren Sapp and Mike Lombardi don't grade every play of every game for every team.

Just because they're the only ones who do this (by the way, doing it without both endzone view and the play is useless, let alone them being amateurs) doesn't mean they're right.

When Penn dominates a DE and Freeman completes a big play or when he obliterates a defender and Blount cruises into the endzone nobody says ANYTHING. But if Freeman has to move around it's the end of the world and Penn sucks. Isn't this the same website that ranked Stylez White as a top 5 4-3 DE in 2009? Yea they really know what they're looking at it.
All the "bad" players have their good plays. The worst left tackle on this list started 5 games for the #1 offense in the NFL. All NFL players do their jobs 70-80% of the time. What separates the best from the other guys is often determined by 10, 20, or 30 plays over an entire season.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#29 : June 13, 2011, 08:02:02 PM

We have to get the bucs coaching staff a subscription to PFF.  The entire staff - under two head coaches - clearly don't know Olinemen from their elbows.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant
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