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acacius

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#30 : June 15, 2011, 08:46:52 AM

but PFF is an extremely accurate and valid site. I mean they guess at assignments and protection calls. They score all of these players acurately on every single team and they make no mistakes despite guess. We should use these numbers as gospel. I mean why would the type of offense, playcall, protections, etc mean anything. either the guy blocked that guy on tv or he didnt right?

No one should ever use PFF as evidence of anything. just pretty numbers and fancy stats based on guesses.

Shouldn't it be possible for there to be some sort of happy medium between taking their statistics as gospel truth and treating them like they're worthless?  I'm sorry, but I think considering them "very interesting, with caveats" is a pretty valid approach.  At least they're *trying* to quantify these sorts of things.

Feel Real Good

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#31 : June 15, 2011, 09:12:26 AM

but PFF is an extremely accurate and valid site. I mean they guess at assignments and protection calls. They score all of these players acurately on every single team and they make no mistakes despite guess. We should use these numbers as gospel. I mean why would the type of offense, playcall, protections, etc mean anything. either the guy blocked that guy on tv or he didnt right?

No one should ever use PFF as evidence of anything. just pretty numbers and fancy stats based on guesses.

Shouldn't it be possible for there to be some sort of happy medium between taking their statistics as gospel truth and treating them like they're worthless?  I'm sorry, but I think considering them "very interesting, with caveats" is a pretty valid approach.  At least they're *trying* to quantify these sorts of things.
Well said. I don't think anyone is saying to use these rankings as gosepl truth. But they've put more work into it than anyone else, and a lot of their rankings make perfect sense, so their stuff deserves real consideration.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#32 : June 15, 2011, 09:28:47 AM

On the offensive line GT - really hard to grade them not knowing the play call, or the blocking call, or the players assignment on the individual play.  On one of the Scott/CC's podcasts this was addressed.  Really hard for an outside source to evaluate - likely even harder to know when one is wrong...
Amazing how not knowing the playcalls they can figure out Joe Thomas, Jake Long, and D'Brickashaw Ferguson are the best left tackles.
LOL - yea - with the same caveat towards their statistics. I would offer I might on a good day with lots of advice from you might be able to look at the performance of Joe Thomas, compare him to other players, and think he might well be one of the top 3.  I don't think that is amazing.

And what about halfway through the season when Joe Thomas was about in the middle of the their rankings?  They don't just give Joe Thomas better grades because he's Joe Thomas.  Thomas, like Jordan Gross, struggled through the first half of the year and their grades reflected that.  Just like when they both played at an All-Pro level after that, their grades reflected that.


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#33 : June 15, 2011, 02:36:13 PM

but PFF is an extremely accurate and valid site. I mean they guess at assignments and protection calls. They score all of these players acurately on every single team and they make no mistakes despite guess. We should use these numbers as gospel. I mean why would the type of offense, playcall, protections, etc mean anything. either the guy blocked that guy on tv or he didnt right?

No one should ever use PFF as evidence of anything. just pretty numbers and fancy stats based on guesses.

Shouldn't it be possible for there to be some sort of happy medium between taking their statistics as gospel truth and treating them like they're worthless?  I'm sorry, but I think considering them "very interesting, with caveats" is a pretty valid approach.  At least they're *trying* to quantify these sorts of things.
Well said. I don't think anyone is saying to use these rankings as gosepl truth. But they've put more work into it than anyone else, and a lot of their rankings make perfect sense, so their stuff deserves real consideration.

I think they reference points and nothing more. Many may be pretty accurate, there are some that are inaccurate. Thats called "hit or miss" by any and Im not going to form any concrete opinions on those numbers. PFF admits as much, so Im not sure why so many are singing their praises as if they do something no NFL team can do. NFL teams can actually go in greater depth and get greater accuracy becvause they know everything about the play called and the assignments. Surely NFL teams may grade differently than PFF.

Maybe thats why the Bucs FO seems to like and grade Joseph higher than PFF(not defending Joseph before someone decides to put words in my mouth)? Sounds crazy I know, but maybe different teams ask different things from thier players. Maybe thats how a guy may get an A form PFF but their team gives them a C...or vice versa.

PFF uses guesses and that to me is plenty enough reason to just use them as a reference point and nothing more.



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tatmanfish

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#34 : June 15, 2011, 02:39:42 PM

Ive only seen a small number of people claim that PFF has Buc bias. Surely you guys are not on a crusade on the behalf of PFF to disuade a couple conspiracy theorists? I mean people like that usually easily dismiss things and rarely consider someone motive to be disingenuine right? lol, go goet those 5 guys!!! youll change their conspiracy driven minds!



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#35 : June 15, 2011, 06:05:49 PM

I haven't seen anyone other than Biggs and FRG indicate PFF has a bias against the bucs, their oline, their staff or anything else buccaneer.  I believe that the need to declare those who won't buy into PFF as the be all and end all as conspiratorialists is smoke.  Folks disagree with all sorts of opinions and thoughts, written and broadcast.  To think that everyone must accept PFF as gospel and better than player's coaches and management is nonsensical to me.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

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#36 : June 15, 2011, 06:11:28 PM

Do either one of you fellas have the link where anyone said "everyone must accept PFF as gospel"?  I don't know who pulled that out of their butt (I think it was tatmanfish) but somebody did.

I haven't seen that said or said that myself.  What I have said or seen said is, if their rankings are incorrect with Buccaneer players, why aren't they incorrect with the other players around the NFL that they grade?  An answer to that question has yet to be provided.


acacius

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#37 : June 15, 2011, 06:11:35 PM

I haven't seen anyone other than Biggs and FRG indicate PFF has a bias against the bucs, their oline, their staff or anything else buccaneer.  I believe that the need to declare those who won't buy into PFF as the be all and end all as conspiratorialists is smoke.  Folks disagree with all sorts of opinions and thoughts, written and broadcast.  To think that everyone must accept PFF as gospel and better than player's coaches and management is nonsensical to me.

Your strawman is showing.

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#38 : June 15, 2011, 06:17:30 PM

Do you have a link to where me, Biggs, or anyone else claimed PFF to be gospel? I don't think anywhere in this thread or the other thread I even said I agree or disagree with them. My point all along is they should be acknowledged as having a valid opinion. Just like you acknowledge SR for having a valid opinion. You may disagree with PFF's opinion or how they come up with them, but their opinions are just as valid as anyone else. I just don't understand why people immediately shoot this stuff down without even offering valid counterpoints. JC is the only one with the guts to stick up for the Bucs players. Everyone else just says PFF doesn't know what they're talking about but can't bring themselves to say the Bucs players are better than what PFF says.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#39 : June 15, 2011, 06:27:35 PM

Do either one of you fellas have the link where anyone said "everyone must accept PFF as gospel"?  I don't know who pulled that out of their butt (I think it was tatmanfish) but somebody did.

I haven't seen that said or said that myself.  What I have said or seen said is, if their rankings are incorrect with Buccaneer players, why aren't they incorrect with the other players around the NFL that they grade?  An answer to that question has yet to be provided.
The as gospel is an expression - which of course you know.  Now the insistence that others accept the rankings by PFF as correct is pretty well implied by you and FRG. That I personally don't think the bucs have a bunch of the worse lineman in the league would be clearly in opposition to PFFs data.  That same data was rejected in a podcast, and now in Scott opinion today particularly as respects Penn. 

You and FRG put huge stock in them - that is fine for you.  I don't subscribe to evaluations done by folks other than the staff being more accurate.  And the actions of the staff for three years have been pretty consistent. 

I don't believe their ratings for any other team's players are any better or worse than those of the buccaneers.  Just like anyone else's rankings they are based upon opinions.  I just read where Penn was considered a top 10 LOT by a group of bloggers, and SR opined that is about right in his opinion. 

And I don't think they conspire against buccaneers.  I simply don't have the same esteem you and FRG have Biggs. 

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

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#40 : June 15, 2011, 06:28:38 PM

just saw 'gospel' in acacius's post btw - without the other phrase, i.e. accept as...

: June 15, 2011, 06:31:07 PM dbucfan

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

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#41 : June 15, 2011, 06:43:34 PM

No one thinks are line is that great, yet no one wants to believe it when a website says it?  Our OL is average, plain and simple imo.

\"Lets put the O back in Country\"

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#42 : June 15, 2011, 07:14:11 PM

Wait. This wasn't a joke thread?


acacius

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#43 : June 15, 2011, 07:53:09 PM

just saw 'gospel' in acacius's post btw - without the other phrase, i.e. accept as...

Erm, you seem to have wildly misinterpreted my post.  Yes, the word "gospel" was in my post.  It was not saying anything that even vaguely resembled your strawman, however.  On the contrary, I was suggesting that one could find some value in PFF's numbers without elevating their worth to an unreasonable level.

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#44 : June 15, 2011, 10:20:11 PM

without addressing any of the OG or OT woes in the draft, I'm guessing they are really putting a lot of faith in Pat Morris.
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