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now can we put that extremely accurate data into context? or do we have to take it at its most simplistic form and not expand upon it?
in other words can we say that Zuttah graded out well, but was due to many things, not just his individual performance? or is simply he got beat or he didnt?
I think the interview addressed all your questions. Quote from: tatmanfish on June 17, 2011, 04:27:14 PMnow can we put that extremely accurate data into context? or do we have to take it at its most simplistic form and not expand upon it? The order of the players isn't necessarily a ranking system, it's simply a cumulative ordering of their various grades. If you look at Robinson's gradings most (-8 of his total -11.7 grade) of his negative comes from the 8 penalties he accumulated over the season.If you look at Robinson's coverage grade in isolation he shoots up from extremely poor to below average. Our ideal plan is for people to put their own weighting into what aspects of a position's play they think is most important. A good example at cornerback is Woodson vs Revis. Overall we have Woodson topping Revis in a close competition, but for coverage alone Revis was on another level entirely. Some people don't care much if their corner makes Deion-esque 'business decisions' if he can cover like Revis was this past season, others like their corners to be able to come up and set the tone against the run - we don't want to try and tell people which is right - it's all subjective.We don't intend for our numbers to necessarily be a ranking system - what we present is an efficiency grading of how a player performed on the snaps he saw over the season. We then love it when smart football fans use that information together with their own knowledge to make their own conclusions. Quote from: tatmanfish on June 17, 2011, 04:27:14 PMin other words can we say that Zuttah graded out well, but was due to many things, not just his individual performance? or is simply he got beat or he didnt?We simply record what we see and the outcome of what each player attempted to do. In truth, a player may have done a good job of blocking the wrong person but as we have no knowledge of that we assume they know what they are doing and as such grade the block as a success. Clearly we accept this introduces a small error but we believe that this is still a step change in accuracy above what anyone else can achieve. When we spoke to Bengals OG Evan Mathis earlier in the season he was quick to confirm that despite this potential error margin, our grading stacks up well with the detailed feedback he was receiving internally.At the end of the day this is the NFL and players that consistently make mental errors don't stay around very long. In the vast majority of cases the reason a play fails is because one player physically beats another and this is normally easy to see if you have the time. The reason most people don't do this is not because they can't but because they don't watch each play 5-10 times like we do and have a system for tracking it over the course of a game (never mind season). Obviously watching 60-70 hours of football a week also helps the process.
You were simply too smart for me.
PFFs explanation coincides with my thought process of putting the numbers into context based on their observations and gradings.
Biggs would rather us take it at full weight though and not look at anything other than PFFs final numbers.
It's simply he got beat or he didn't. ......thats taking it at full weight. A narrow minded thought process like this leaves no room for debate or any chance to expand upon an y ideas.
"We then love it when smart football fans use that information together with their own knowledge to make their own conclusions."yeah, PFF didnt say anything along those lines.....oh wait....they love it and encourage fans to take their numbers and expand upon them to form their own opinions. oh, ok. maybe you should have read more closely. (once you figure out Im talking about US using PFFs numbers and putting them into context of what happened through out the season, ill be blown away)It's simply he got beat or he didn't. ......thats taking it at full weight. A narrow minded thought process like this leaves no room for debate or any chance to expand upon an y ideas.
Many of the replies in this thread remind me of traditionalist baseball fans who dismiss sabermetrics as "nerd stats" because they don't understand them and can't bear to accept the idea that their archaic stats that were created in the 1900s aren't nearly as valid as they think they are.Similar to baseball sabermetrics, PFF's analysis is not perfect nor should anyone believe it is, but it's certainly more accurate and telling than your "eye test". To suggest that you can "just tell by watching" and dismiss an in-depth analysis is quite the display of hubris.
Steve Wyremski (SW): Sticking with ’08 for a minute, I want to test our rating system, as well as your memory. I know it’s going to be tough. It’s going back three years now, but if I learned anything … it’s that you guys vividly remember a lot of games. If I were to ask you what game you’d rank your best game of the ’08 season, what would you say?Kevin Carter (KC): Oh, man. Oh, wow. [Laughs]. You know what, I had a pretty good game against Carolina. We played them on a Monday night up in Carolina. It was a pretty good game; I had a sack or two. I think I had one sack on Jake Delhomme. I had a good game against the Seattle Seahawks.SW: I’ll tell you what we ranked your top two games… your game against the Lions in Week 12. The other game that we thought was your best was Week 3 against the Chicago Bears. We ranked your pass rushing that game through the roof.KC: That’s it … yes. That’s it. I remember. I was going against John Tait. Yes, good game. Very apropos.SW: [Discusses PFF in further detail]. What are your thoughts on that and what we’re trying to do?KC: I think it’s great. Some times the objectivity isn’t as objective as it can be. When you talk about coaches and players when they rate people, it’s often different from when a media outlet does it. Some times, there’s prejudice both ways. If you’re just watching a game from an arbitrary/objective standpoint and you’re not considering that one player is a 10-year veteran, this one’s a hot new rookie, has potential, or any of those kind of dangerous terms that get thrown around, [it’s great]. Sometimes people with give guys more credit than they’re due just because of one’s salary or draft status. I think it’s a great thing you guys are trying to do. Let’s face it, in this sensationalistic media world that we live in, some times the wrong players get held up on a pedestal. That’s why there’s always these unsung heroes.