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John Galt?

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« #30 : October 27, 2011, 01:09:53 PM »

All the Tea Party rallies I've seen have had the same message and theme- less Govt. spending, less taxes, less Govt. interference.-pretty much smaller government in general.

The OWS folks, I can't figure out what they want. Some are griping that big banks got bailed out and they didn't (did they want no bailouts or did they want the "free money" the banks got?"). Others are complaining that Wall Street is not giving them jobs (usually the pierced and tattooed freaks wearing no shirts-did you look like that when you applied for the Wall Street job?). Others like the vid. are ranting about Socialism???

Seems like they just want change, they don't know what kind of change, or how that change should be enacted just change- brother can ya spare some change

The Tea Party spits out slogans without understanding what they are asking for because they have been manipulated by people with economics and finance degrees that own/manage mutual funds.  One of the largest employer in the world is the U.S. government and the closest private employer in size of people employed is Wal Mart.  Most educated, college graduates seeking a job have a better shot at a good future working for the U.S. government not Wally World.


The largest source of employment in the US is small businesses, not Walmart, not the Govt. That is who is behind the Tea Party- middle America, small biz owners, contractors, hardware store owners, farmers, etc.

As far as "The Tea Party spits out slogans without understanding what they are asking for because they have been manipulated by people with economics and finance degrees that own/manage mutual funds"- yeah sounds like ya got a good conspiracy theory there- it's all the fault of people with econ/finance degrees and the Rothschilds and Jewish bankers and the Illuminati. What about the black helicopters and bigfoot??


spartan

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« #31 : October 27, 2011, 01:18:46 PM »

I can clearly hear the American accent leaking through in his delivery. In fact, I can even pinpoint the specific type of American accent.
With all due respect to Mrs. Spartan.

Not wanting to argue for arguments sake, but could that not possibly be because he lives in the US now? My UK family and friends say I have a bit of an American twang now, so it rubs off on the best of us :)

John Galt?

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« #32 : October 27, 2011, 01:35:12 PM »

The vast majority of the "Tea Party" are social security, medicaid collecting middle class Americans who don't understand what they are protesting about.  The Occupy movement is a global movement that is backed by the youth and elderly unlike the "Tea Party". The Occupy movement is a global movement that is backed by the youth and elderly unlike the "Tea Party".


Got any links or evidence to back up your conveniently "invented" statement?

I, of course do have supporting evidence, because I usually research BEFORE I post.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/127181/tea-partiers-fairly-mainstream-demographics.aspx

.....

Seems my verified evidence disputes your "vast majority of the "Tea Party" are social security, medicaid collecting" because the majority (55%) earn over $50K and don't qualify for medicaid and 79% are under Social Security age. Also my verified evidence shows the Tea Partiers are within 2% of all the national averages for age demographics which further disputes your "youth and elderly" argument.

Also I have a NYT/CBS poll

http://documents.nytimes.com/new-york-timescbs-news-poll-national-survey-of-tea-party-supporters?ref=politics

note questions 105-107


shawn731

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« #33 : October 28, 2011, 12:12:55 PM »

Galt- the caption of the signs was a low blow. 

Also, The Tea party had support by republicans and others with means to advertise or support their cause (Palin, etc.).  There really isn’t a supporter for The OWS movement.  Heck most reports understated the population of supporters/protesters and when it began.  The only difference I see between them and the Tea party is support.  If the movement lasts long enough you may see the same effect on election day.  Also, to believe that all the people who attend are college kids, dropouts, etc is ridiculous.  In addition, like the OWS movement people attended the Tea Party rallies to voice their concerns about what they didn’t like about the government (Gun laws, etc.).  The bottom line is that there are individuals who are not satisfied with the way their government is handling national affairs and they have decided to do something about it.  Time will tell if their actions will be fruitful.

CBWx2

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« #34 : October 28, 2011, 12:37:01 PM »

Galt- the caption of the signs was a low blow. 

Also, The Tea party had support by republicans and others with means to advertise or support their cause (Palin, etc.).  There really isn’t a supporter for The OWS movement.  Heck most reports understated the population of supporters/protesters and when it began.  The only difference I see between them and the Tea party is support.  If the movement lasts long enough you may see the same effect on election day.  Also, to believe that all the people who attend are college kids, dropouts, etc is ridiculous.  In addition, like the OWS movement people attended the Tea Party rallies to voice their concerns about what they didn’t like about the government (Gun laws, etc.).  The bottom line is that there are individuals who are not satisfied with the way their government is handling national affairs and they have decided to do something about it.  Time will tell if their actions will be fruitful.

Very well said. The OWS movement started 41 days ago. The Tea Party has been around for over two years. Comparing the two is akin to comparing Josh Freeman to Ben Roethlisberger and claiming that Freeman is a joke because he hasn't won two Super Bowls and made a Pro Bowl. There are Occupy rallies in over 70 cities in the U.S. and worldwide. They've obviously tapped into something.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/occupy-wall-street-movement-worldwide/story?id=14743648


John Galt?

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« #35 : October 28, 2011, 12:48:06 PM »

Disagree Shawn. the biggest difference between OWS and the Tea Party is clearly defined platforms and objectives.

Here is a quote from one of the OWS organizers

Quote

http://www.thenation.com/article/163719/occupy-wall-street-faq

What are the demands of the protesters?


Ugh—the zillion-dollar question. Again, the original Adbusters call asked, “What is our one demand?” Technically, there isn’t one yet. In the weeks leading up to September 17, the NYC General Assembly seemed to be veering away from the language of “demands” in the first place, largely because government institutions are already so shot through with corporate money that making specific demands would be pointless until the movement grew stronger politically. Instead, to begin with, they opted to make their demand the occupation itself—and the direct democracy taking place there--which in turn may or may not come up with some specific demand.


So their plan was to Occupy Wall Street so they could come up with a reason for why they occupied Wall Street- HUH??


OTOH- the Tea Party very early on actually adopted a specific platform

Quote
http://www.thecontract.org/the-contract-from-america/

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tea-party-activists-craft-contract-america/story?id=9740705

1. Protect the Constitution
Require each bill to identify the specific provision of the Constitution that gives Congress the power to do what the bill does.

2. Reject Cap & Trade
Stop costly new regulations that would increase unemployment, raise consumer prices, and weaken the nation’s global competitiveness with virtually no impact on global temperatures. (72.20%)

3. Demand a Balanced Budget
Begin the Constitutional amendment process to require a balanced budget with a two-thirds majority needed for any tax hike. (69.69%)

4. Enact Fundamental Tax Reform
Adopt a simple and fair single-rate tax system by scrapping the internal revenue code and replacing it with one that is no longer than 4,543 words—the length of the original Constitution. (64.90%)

5. Restore Fiscal Responsibility & Constitutionally Limited Government in Washington
Create a Blue Ribbon taskforce that engages in a complete audit of federal agencies and programs, assessing their Constitutionality, and identifying duplication, waste, ineffectiveness, and agencies and programs better left for the states or local authorities, or ripe for wholesale reform or elimination due to our efforts to restore limited government consistent with the US Constitution’s meaning. (63.37%)

6. End Runaway Government Spending
Impose a statutory cap limiting the annual growth in total federal spending to the sum of the inflation rate plus the percentage of population growth. (56.57%)

7. Defund, Repeal, & Replace Government-run Health Care
Defund, repeal and replace the recently passed government-run health care with a system that actually makes health care and insurance more affordable by enabling a competitive, open, and transparent free-market health care and health insurance system that isn’t restricted by state boundaries. (56.39%)

8. Pass an ‘All-of-the-Above” Energy Policy
Authorize the exploration of proven energy reserves to reduce our dependence on foreign energy sources from unstable countries and reduce regulatory barriers to all other forms of energy creation, lowering prices and creating competition and jobs. (55.51%)

9. Stop the Pork
Place a moratorium on all earmarks until the budget is balanced, and then require a 2/3 majority to pass any earmark. (55.47%)

10. Stop the Tax Hikes
Permanently repeal all tax hikes, including those to the income, capital gains, and death taxes, currently scheduled to begin in 2011. (53.38%)



The Tea Party grew out of protests against very specific laws and issues (Obesity Tax in NY, the Stimulus plan of '09, Obamacare, etc.) and all TP protests had one overwhelming common denominator- stop runaway spending and taxes.

I just don't see any specifics with OWS, no common denominators, just vague ideals like "wealth disparity" or "money corrupts". Might as well protest the weather.

If OWS wants my support, then they need to answer "what do you want done?" and it needs to be a realistic answer, not "end corruption" or "change".


shawn731

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« #36 : October 28, 2011, 02:08:10 PM »

Galt you acknowledge that you have not seen or heard of a leader for the OWS, so you are only receiving requests from the few that make it onto newspapers or blogs and like you i have seen good and pathetic.  The Tea Party (IMO) did not provide answers to the mess in DC. They were a huge voting bloc that the republicans and others used to gain attention and support for their causes.  Has anything positive come out of the Tea Party movement for Americans. 

The problem is that there are many things wrong in this country and it is difficult for some to focus on one problem at a time.  Many people are fed up, frustrated, and tired of the status quo and they have chosen to do something (protest).  It might not be my or your choice but it is theirs and I see nothing wrong with it when it is peaceful.  I think the moment they unify and produce a "contract" you will see that their ideals mirror some of yours. 

Biggs3535

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« #37 : October 28, 2011, 04:21:44 PM »



CBWx2

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« #38 : October 28, 2011, 06:58:09 PM »



Did the Tea Party ever really protest, Biggs? Or did they just rally? There is a difference.


Biggs3535

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« #39 : October 28, 2011, 07:15:52 PM »

Did the Tea Party ever really protest, Biggs? Or did they just rally? There is a difference.

Yes sir, they did.  They were protesting overspending, high taxes, government health care, etc..  They were just able to do it peacefully, instead of acting like a bunch of hooligans.

I know you won't care for the source of this article or much of the opinion in it, but you can't really argue with this part:

Quote
So we know how President Obama and his liberal base hysterically responded to the reality of Tea Party. The question is this: how would they have responded to the following 25 headlines?

Pair Living With Tea Party Protesters Arrested For Selling Heroin

Tea Party Protester Defecates on Police Car

More than 700 Arrested After Tea Party Blocks Traffic on Brooklyn Bridge

Police In Riot Gear Clear Tea Party Protesters in California City

130 Tea Party Arrests in Chicago

Police Investigating Possible Sexual Assault of Teen at Tea Party

Tea Party Discourages Sexual Assault Victims From Contacting Police

Tea Party Protests Go Global; Riots in Rome

Muppet-Wielding Tea Partiers Occupy George Soros’ Speech

Florida Mom Abandons Family for Tea Party

Police Worry as Tea Party Pines for World Series Spotlight

Tea Partiers ‘Defecating on Our Doorsteps,’ NYC Residents Complain

Riot Police Arrest Tea Party Protesters

Tea Party Occupies GE CEO Jeff Immelt’s Connecticut Front Lawn

Tea Party Targets Phil Griffin’s House

Tea Party Takes On NYPD at Times Sq.; Then March to Washington Sq.: 74 Total Arrests

Repairing Tea Party Damage to City Hall Could Cost $400,000

Tea Party Killing Tax-Funded Grass at McPherson Square

Cincinnati Police Arrest More Than 20 Tea Partiers at Piatt Park

Tea Party Speaker: Violence Will Be Necessary to Achieve Our Goals

NYers to Tea Party: Lay Off the Drums

Tea Party Protesters Sing “F*** the USA”

98 Degrees Singer Among Tea Party Arrests

Protesters Accused of Hurting NYC Economy

Tea Party Gets ‘Getting Arrested’ App


And we could go on…


FYI, all of those are actual links...just switched out "Tea Party" for "OWS".


CBWx2

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« #40 : October 28, 2011, 08:11:52 PM »



Not to call your post BS, Biggs, but it's BS. Zero Tea Party arrests? If you google Tea Party arrests, you can find a number of them. And there is a stark difference between holding a day long rally in protest of something and occupying a public space for over a month. That, and the occupy movement is significantly larger than the Tea Party movement.


Biggs3535

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« #41 : October 28, 2011, 08:35:42 PM »

Not to call your post BS, Biggs, but it's BS. Zero Tea Party arrests? If you google Tea Party arrests, you can find a number of them.

Actually, I thought the same thing and I did search that exact thing before I posted that pic.  Here is the link:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Tea+party+arrests&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

None of those, that I could find, are actual Tea Party arrests.  Most of them are discussing the fact that there were none compared to the high number of OWS arrests.  If you have an example, I'd like to see it.



And there is a stark difference between holding a day long rally in protest of something and occupying a public space for over a month. That, and the occupy movement is significantly larger than the Tea Party movement.

Apparently the only difference is not being able to act like a normal human being.  The Tea Party folks didn't defecate on people's doorsteps.  They followed the laws of wherever they were protesting.  They didn't litter.  They didn't commit acts of violence and sexual crimes.  They didn't block traffic or cause police to come out in Riot gear.  They didn't cause $400,000+ damage to a city hall.

You can try to rationalize those hooligans behavior, like crapping on police cars and citizen's doorsteps, as much as you like - but the fact is the people are simply acting like wild animals



That, and the occupy movement is significantly larger than the Tea Party movement.

Link?


CBWx2

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« #42 : October 28, 2011, 10:40:05 PM »

Not to call your post BS, Biggs, but it's BS. Zero Tea Party arrests? If you google Tea Party arrests, you can find a number of them.

Actually, I thought the same thing and I did search that exact thing before I posted that pic.  Here is the link:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Tea+party+arrests&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

None of those, that I could find, are actual Tea Party arrests.  Most of them are discussing the fact that there were none compared to the high number of OWS arrests.  If you have an example, I'd like to see it.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/11/strange-scene-10-arrested-as-tea-party-watchers-heckle-police.php

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/03/violent-tea-partier-arrested-at-democratic-rally-in-houston/

http://photos.dailycamera.com/InFocus/IN-FOCUS-TEA-PARTY/11854237_SxRmks/1/838257875_zWePo/Medium

While I'm certainly aware that there have been more arrests in the Occupy movement than there have in Tea Party rallies, the suggestion that there haven't been any is ridiculous.

And there is a stark difference between holding a day long rally in protest of something and occupying a public space for over a month. That, and the occupy movement is significantly larger than the Tea Party movement.

Apparently the only difference is not being able to act like a normal human being.  The Tea Party folks didn't defecate on people's doorsteps.  They followed the laws of wherever they were protesting.  They didn't litter.  They didn't commit acts of violence and sexual crimes.  They didn't block traffic or cause police to come out in Riot gear.  They didn't cause $400,000+ damage to a city hall.

You can try to rationalize those hooligans behavior, like crapping on police cars and citizen's doorsteps, as much as you like - but the fact is the people are simply acting like wild animals

That's what civil unrest is, Biggs. That's the difference between an actual civil uprising and a largely astro-turf movement. While I'm sure that the organizers of the OWS do not condone those actions, the anger and dissent felt by those who identify with this movement is palpable, and at times, difficult to contain. I think that kind of behavior is uncalled for as well, but these are the actions of but a few nutjobs. Most of the arrests associated with the movement are not for those kinds of crimes. Bottom line is that the emotion behind it is real, and even if you choose to trivialize it as "a bunch of hooligans acting like animals", it doesn't change the fact that they are a group of angry Americans who are fed up and want real change.

Just look at all these savage animals...

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/10/the_occupy_wall_street_movemen.html

That, and the occupy movement is significantly larger than the Tea Party movement.

Link?

As one of the other posters pointed out, this has become a global movement. There are Occupy rallies now taking place in upwards of 900 cities worldwide. I don't see how you can debate the notion that this is larger than the Tea Party movement.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/15/us-protests-idUSTRE79E0FC20111015



Biggs3535

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« #43 : October 28, 2011, 11:21:17 PM »

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/11/strange-scene-10-arrested-as-tea-party-watchers-heckle-police.php

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/03/violent-tea-partier-arrested-at-democratic-rally-in-houston/

http://photos.dailycamera.com/InFocus/IN-FOCUS-TEA-PARTY/11854237_SxRmks/1/838257875_zWePo/Medium

While I'm certainly aware that there have been more arrests in the Occupy movement than there have in Tea Party rallies, the suggestion that there haven't been any is ridiculous.

Your first link in the only one that appears to be legit for this discussion, although it says it was Randall Terry's group - who I wouldn't claim on my side.  He's a first-class whack job, and ironically running for President as a Democrat.

The second is a tad different from what were seeing now from OWS - a wacko being arrested at a Democratic rally, not a Tea Party.  The third is a wacky lib, crashing a Tea Party - the opposite of link #2.



That's what civil unrest is, Biggs. That's the difference between an actual civil uprising and a largely astro-turf movement. While I'm sure that the organizers of the OWS do not condone those actions, the anger and dissent felt by those who identify with this movement is palpable, and at times, difficult to contain. I think that kind of behavior is uncalled for as well, but these are the actions of but a few nutjobs. Most of the arrests associated with the movement are not for those kinds of crimes. Bottom line is that the emotion behind it is real, and even if you choose to trivialize it as "a bunch of hooligans acting like animals", it doesn't change the fact that they are a group of angry Americans who are fed up and want real change.

Just look at all these savage animals...

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/10/the_occupy_wall_street_movemen.html

First of all, the crap were seeing from these protests is not civil unrest.  Those people who are peacefully protesting at the OWS and what we've seen from the Tea Party crowds is civil unrest.  That other garbage is simply hooliganism.

Second, I'm sure you see the parallels of the French/Russian Revolution and OWS that have been brought up, which was far from the American Revolution.

And spare me the astro-turf line.  The unions and community organizing groups like ACORN (or whatever name they're hiding under now) have been involved getting most of these losers out of their grandma's house for some rioting.



As one of the other posters pointed out, this has become a global movement. There are Occupy rallies now taking place in upwards of 900 cities worldwide. I don't see how you can debate the notion that this is larger than the Tea Party movement.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/15/us-protests-idUSTRE79E0FC20111015

1.  I don't care too much about what's happening overseas.  I'm talking about numbers here in America.  Do you have any information that says there are more protestors that have shown up the OWS protests around the country compared to the Tea Party protests that have happened?

2.  I think you and reuters have the order backwards.  These protests have been happening overseas for quite some time.  Europe has been burning for well over a year now in riots regarding the banks and whatnot.  Even the vaunted Arab Spring had similarities to what we're seeing now.  We're not the ones doing the spreading, we've been spread to.


CBWx2

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« #44 : October 29, 2011, 01:11:53 AM »

That's what civil unrest is, Biggs. That's the difference between an actual civil uprising and a largely astro-turf movement. While I'm sure that the organizers of the OWS do not condone those actions, the anger and dissent felt by those who identify with this movement is palpable, and at times, difficult to contain. I think that kind of behavior is uncalled for as well, but these are the actions of but a few nutjobs. Most of the arrests associated with the movement are not for those kinds of crimes. Bottom line is that the emotion behind it is real, and even if you choose to trivialize it as "a bunch of hooligans acting like animals", it doesn't change the fact that they are a group of angry Americans who are fed up and want real change.

Just look at all these savage animals...

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/10/the_occupy_wall_street_movemen.html

First of all, the crap were seeing from these protests is not civil unrest.  Those people who are peacefully protesting at the OWS and what we've seen from the Tea Party crowds is civil unrest.  That other garbage is simply hooliganism.

Agreed, but the point I was making is that those actions are done by but a few whackjobs. The arrest totals are not a reflection of that type of behavior. The vast majority of arrests have nothing to do with any violence or vandalism.

Second, I'm sure you see the parallels of the French/Russian Revolution and OWS that have been brought up, which was far from the American Revolution.

I never said anything about OWS being like the American Revolution. I don't really see any great parallels between this and the Russian Revolution, although I can see some vague similarities between this and the events leading up to the French Revolution. However, I think it's a bit superfluous to refer to this or the Tea Party movement as a revolution at all. If anything the Occupy movement mostly resembles the protests that took place during the Great Depression.

And spare me the astro-turf line.  The unions and community organizing groups like ACORN (or whatever name they're hiding under now) have been involved getting most of these losers out of their grandma's house for some rioting.

You do realize that ACORN itself was a grass roots organization, so them helping to organize Occupy protests doesn't make the movement any less grass roots. And the Union involvement pales in comparison to the amount of funding and other resources provided to the Tea Party from traditional conservative power brokers such as Koch Industries, FreedomWorks, and most recently, Donald Trump.

As one of the other posters pointed out, this has become a global movement. There are Occupy rallies now taking place in upwards of 900 cities worldwide. I don't see how you can debate the notion that this is larger than the Tea Party movement.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/15/us-protests-idUSTRE79E0FC20111015

1.  I don't care too much about what's happening overseas.  I'm talking about numbers here in America.  Do you have any information that says there are more protestors that have shown up the OWS protests around the country compared to the Tea Party protests that have happened?

There are no solid numbers to quote, because media coverage has been focused mostly on the Wall Street protest, which at last count was over 20,000 strong. But as of October 9th, there were protests going on in 70 U.S. cities and 600 communities in 45 states. This has only been going on for 41 days, and most of the newer Occupy protests have just begun. I don't recall the Tea Party becoming this widespread, that fast.

2.  I think you and reuters have the order backwards.  These protests have been happening overseas for quite some time.  Europe has been burning for well over a year now in riots regarding the banks and whatnot.  Even the vaunted Arab Spring had similarities to what we're seeing now.  We're not the ones doing the spreading, we've been spread to.

The original organizers of OWS cited the Arab Spring as the motivation for the protest, so you aren't necessarily incorrect in that regard, but the protesters overseas are holding signs and echoing phrases commonly associated with the Wall Street protest. There are "We are the 99%" signs showing up all over Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and even Mongolia.

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