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wreck ship

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#225 : November 16, 2012, 10:20:15 PM

Blame the church for not knowing who the needy are. I have no idea who is in the car or if they are needy or not.  If I saw what you did I would never donate there.

Whoomp! There it is..

Thanks.
aww come on and take it easy on bayfisher. He talks before thinking.

philosophy is questions that may never be answered
religion is answers that may never be questioned

Bayfisher

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#226 : November 16, 2012, 10:24:10 PM

Yes, I proved your point of common sense.  That doesn't change the fact that some of them may have been abusing the system.

wreck ship

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#227 : November 16, 2012, 10:28:06 PM

You aren't dealing with Wrecked Ship.  I know the numbers.  Why don't you explain how it doesn't oppress the poor.
60% of all entitlement spending goes to seniors. Hows that for numbers?

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#228 : November 16, 2012, 10:28:10 PM

aww come on and take it easy on bayfisher. He talks before thinking.
The circus let out early?

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#229 : November 16, 2012, 10:29:40 PM

You aren't dealing with Wrecked Ship.  I know the numbers.  Why don't you explain how it doesn't oppress the poor.
60% of all entitlement spending goes to seniors. Hows that for numbers?
You better go check the Saints board political section and see if they updated.  I'll be ready for the talking points.

wreck ship

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#230 : November 16, 2012, 10:36:09 PM

You aren't dealing with Wrecked Ship.  I know the numbers.  Why don't you explain how it doesn't oppress the poor.
60% of all entitlement spending goes to seniors. Hows that for numbers?
You better go check the Saints board political section and see if they updated.  I'll be ready for the talking points.
lol.you're so predictable

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religion is answers that may never be questioned

spartan

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#231 : November 16, 2012, 11:06:53 PM

According to some here, if someone uses food stamps at the grocery store then drives off in a newer car it's an indicator of welfare fraud.

I happened to be visiting a friend today at his business which is located in front of a church. Apparently every Friday the church gives away free groceries....I am told they give away the groceries to anyone, no questions asked.

It was amazing how many newer vehicles were in line to get those free groceries. I brought it up to him and he tells me the new cars are there every single week. In fact I noticed that AT LEAST 80% of the vehicles were newer.

Using the same logic as others on here, these people apparently w/ enough money to drive a new vehicle were abusing the largess of the church to take food out of the mouths of those in real need. You know..the haves taking food out of the mouths of the have nots.

I know the straight-line libertarians are big on the community support aspect of providing for the needy. I just wonder how they would deal w/ the non-needy abusing a community-supported welfare system...

...or maybe, the vehicles they were driving aren't an indicator of how well off they really are......and we should be careful jumping to conclusions based on first blush.......Nah... that couldn't be it.....I'm sure.

Please feel free to insert your obligatory "apple to dump truck" non-sequiturs, here. ::)

Kinda curious where you want to go with this, or what you goal was.

I will give an immediate response in that if someone keeps turning up in a really nice car for free handouts, the question of selling the really nice car, buying a not so nice car and buying your own groceries might come up. Not because I am a bastard (that is another discussion), but as you elude, resources are are finite and they could be utilized better else where, or at\ least with someone who really needs it. Now I do not know all these peoples stories so they may have a perfectly legitimate reason, but that should not prevent the conversation from being had. At the very least in terms of "advice" how they could start on the road to recovery. Give a man a fish etc

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#232 : November 16, 2012, 11:12:10 PM

Welfare has become the minimum wage equalizer.

But without the job and work bit.

The welfare safety net is brilliant, but it needs to be tempered with reality. What I mean by that is I have seen it (in other countries) go from a safety net to a way of life. it is at the point in some countries where it is as good if not better than getting a minimum/low paying job. Therefore people say for example, with made up numbers,  why should I work a week for $100 when I can get $80 for doing nothing. That is where we are heading, and in some cases, already got to.

wreck ship

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#233 : November 16, 2012, 11:37:49 PM

Welfare has become the minimum wage equalizer.

But without the job and work bit.

The welfare safety net is brilliant, but it needs to be tempered with reality. What I mean by that is I have seen it (in other countries) go from a safety net to a way of life. it is at the point in some countries where it is as good if not better than getting a minimum/low paying job. Therefore people say for example, with made up numbers,  why should I work a week for $100 when I can get $80 for doing nothing. That is where we are heading, and in some cases, already got to.
not enough cases to justify the right wing assault on entitlement. The irony alone is enough to ignore it. When are we going to have a serious discussions on energy and education reform?

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Cyrus

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#234 : November 16, 2012, 11:47:53 PM

Two points, Spartan.

The first, which has been rubbing me raw from the time the thread was started is jumping to a conclusion about the guy in the nice car  buying groceries w/ EBT, thereby defrauding the system.. Then seeing the lemming like responses that followed. The typical welfare queen meme that is so pronounced in the thread and the resulting frothing at the mouth  that builds from that phony premise.

The second was really a question to the down the middle libertarians that extol the virtues of a localized community welfare support as a sufficient supplant for existing federal welfare programs. This is part of the libertarian platform that is hard for me to digest. I would like to know keeping in mind the simple anecdotal observation I made today how a localized plan would work and ask the question would it be any less susceptible to fraud than what exists already?

Hell, I asked the question before, do we have any sort of projection on the level of welfare fraud that currently exists and can the libertarians do any better w/ their plan? Obviously I have my doubts. Regardless of the plan there will be some abuse. That's just human nature. But is the (R Paul style) libertarian plan really a better one when it comes to reducing fraud or is it just a different plan w/ the same flaws...and maybe even worse?

As I said I have my doubts. We all know human nature will eventually trump all else.

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#235 : November 16, 2012, 11:59:42 PM

Welfare has become the minimum wage equalizer.

But without the job and work bit.

The welfare safety net is brilliant, but it needs to be tempered with reality. What I mean by that is I have seen it (in other countries) go from a safety net to a way of life. it is at the point in some countries where it is as good if not better than getting a minimum/low paying job. Therefore people say for example, with made up numbers,  why should I work a week for $100 when I can get $80 for doing nothing. That is where we are heading, and in some cases, already got to.

Point I was making was that I read somewhere that in order to live at the same level of a minimum wage earner in 1960 a min. wage earner today would need to make something like $12.50. So in fact welfare or i guess specifically food stamps have become a de-facto "equalizer " in that disparity. If true that's a pretty sad commentary on the state of affairs of the country, regardless of political stripe.

I am not disputing your comments about working for a living or justifying lazy bastards.

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#236 : November 17, 2012, 12:11:43 AM

Welfare has become the minimum wage equalizer.

But without the job and work bit.

The welfare safety net is brilliant, but it needs to be tempered with reality. What I mean by that is I have seen it (in other countries) go from a safety net to a way of life. it is at the point in some countries where it is as good if not better than getting a minimum/low paying job. Therefore people say for example, with made up numbers,  why should I work a week for $100 when I can get $80 for doing nothing. That is where we are heading, and in some cases, already got to.
not enough cases to justify the right wing assault on entitlement. The irony alone is enough to ignore it. When are we going to have a serious discussions on energy and education reform?

We have a political duopoly so fully entrenched and beholden to special interest that any meaningful reform on many issues important to the average citizen is essentially a pipe dream.

But hey, we still got unicorns and lollipops or was that bread and circuses? I can't remember.

CBWx2

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#237 : November 17, 2012, 07:55:03 AM

Welfare has become the minimum wage equalizer.

But without the job and work bit.

The welfare safety net is brilliant, but it needs to be tempered with reality. What I mean by that is I have seen it (in other countries) go from a safety net to a way of life. it is at the point in some countries where it is as good if not better than getting a minimum/low paying job. Therefore people say for example, with made up numbers,  why should I work a week for $100 when I can get $80 for doing nothing. That is where we are heading, and in some cases, already got to.

So wouldn't the answer be to raise the minimum wage to an actual living wage, thus making working for a living more attractive than being a lazy bastard? The minimum wage, at the very least, should increase along with the rate if inflation. If it does not, then you will inevitably reach a level where it is impossible to actually work a minimum wage job and not need government assistance to supplement your income. I'd argue that we've already passed that point. Had the minimum wage kept up with the rate of inflation, it would be $10.55 an hour instead of $7.25 an hour. If it had kept up with the rate that executive salaries have increase in the last 20 years, it would be $23.00 an hour.


JavaRay

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#238 : November 17, 2012, 08:09:48 AM

Since when has minimum wage ever been enough to make a living?


CBWx2

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#239 : November 17, 2012, 08:48:28 AM

Since when has minimum wage ever been enough to make a living?

That's kind of the point. You can't have the cost of things going up yearly, keep wages stagnant, and expect that it isn't going to lead to more and more people falling below the poverty line. If you are unemployed or work part time, have two children, and are on assistance, you probably live in subsidized housing where the rent is at or near $0, and receive about $500 a month in food assistance, and likely get help with utilities and such. If you work full-time for minimum wage, your take home income is about $855 a month. You will see your food assistance either lost or dramatically decreased, your rent will go up to anywhere from $300-$400 a month at the subsidized rate. You are already broke after food and rent, and you still haven't paid for your utilities, transportation, child-care- etc. If you create a society where your standard of living actually decreases by working a full-time job, then guess what happens? If you raised the minimum wage to reflect inflation increases, you at least make working for a living a manageable alternative. As it stands now, it isn't even possible for someone to work full time at $7.25 an hour and not still need assistance.
: November 17, 2012, 08:51:25 AM CBWx2

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