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CBWx2

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#30 : November 01, 2011, 10:56:29 PM

Well said, Ladyfan. Some people seem to think that you must be living in a plywood shack or under a bridge to be deemed worthy enough to deserve help. People abuse the system, but that doesn't mean the system doesn't work. The "limousine welfare queen" image is often trotted out as an excuse to claim welfare needs to be gutted or eliminated, as though the majority of recipients fall into that category. The truth is that all it does is give people an excuse to turn a blind eye to the fact that America has a real issue with poverty and hunger. Fraud or no fraud, the extremely limited amount of resources that we Americans allocate to helping the poor help make this issue less severe than it would be without them.


I have more respect for the guy living in a shack or under a bridge on government help than I do for the guy living in a nice house with a nice car and HDTVs on government help.  And the guy under the bridge is most likely getting LESS help.

Exactly right, because the guy under the bridge likely doesn't qualify, as you usually have to have dependents to get any substantial form of assistance. Most first world countries use relative poverty as opposed to absolute poverty to determine who is worthy of assistance due to the fact that first world countries tend to have the resources available to do so. Usually, a large amount of absolute poverty in a nation is deemed as a negative thing, and countries who allow any significant amount of their populace to live in such conditions are deemed to be amoral and inhumane. But hey, at least those types of countries don't have poor people watching HD TV, so maybe they're on to something.


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#31 : November 01, 2011, 11:03:45 PM

Well said, Ladyfan. Some people seem to think that you must be living in a plywood shack or under a bridge to be deemed worthy enough to deserve help. People abuse the system, but that doesn't mean the system doesn't work. The "limousine welfare queen" image is often trotted out as an excuse to claim welfare needs to be gutted or eliminated, as though the majority of recipients fall into that category. The truth is that all it does is give people an excuse to turn a blind eye to the fact that America has a real issue with poverty and hunger. Fraud or no fraud, the extremely limited amount of resources that we Americans allocate to helping the poor help make this issue less severe than it would be without them.


I have more respect for the guy living in a shack or under a bridge on government help than I do for the guy living in a nice house with a nice car and HDTVs on government help.  And the guy under the bridge is most likely getting LESS help.

Exactly right, because the guy under the bridge likely doesn't qualify, as you usually have to have dependents to get any substantial form of assistance. Most first world countries use relative poverty as opposed to absolute poverty to determine who is worthy of assistance due to the fact that first world countries tend to have the resources available to do so. Usually, a large amount of absolute poverty in a nation is deemed as a negative thing, and countries who allow any significant amount of their populace to live in such conditions are deemed to be amoral and inhumane. But hey, at least those types of countries don't have poor people watching HD TV, so maybe they're on to something.


The guy under the bridge doesn't have dependents?  More assumptions from you...

Its this simple ---- If you're watching HDTV, you're not poor.  There's the entire flaw in your logic.  If you can't see that simple point, you are hopeless.

Do these other countries you speak of have "poor" people watching HDTV for their "absolute" poverty?  hahahaha


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#32 : November 01, 2011, 11:06:56 PM

CBWx2:

Please be clear -- I'm not saying poor people don't deserve help.  They do.  But don't act like things are so tough if you're still watching HDTV.  Its just plain laughable.


CBWx2

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#33 : November 01, 2011, 11:30:29 PM

Well said, Ladyfan. Some people seem to think that you must be living in a plywood shack or under a bridge to be deemed worthy enough to deserve help. People abuse the system, but that doesn't mean the system doesn't work. The "limousine welfare queen" image is often trotted out as an excuse to claim welfare needs to be gutted or eliminated, as though the majority of recipients fall into that category. The truth is that all it does is give people an excuse to turn a blind eye to the fact that America has a real issue with poverty and hunger. Fraud or no fraud, the extremely limited amount of resources that we Americans allocate to helping the poor help make this issue less severe than it would be without them.


I have more respect for the guy living in a shack or under a bridge on government help than I do for the guy living in a nice house with a nice car and HDTVs on government help.  And the guy under the bridge is most likely getting LESS help.

Exactly right, because the guy under the bridge likely doesn't qualify, as you usually have to have dependents to get any substantial form of assistance. Most first world countries use relative poverty as opposed to absolute poverty to determine who is worthy of assistance due to the fact that first world countries tend to have the resources available to do so. Usually, a large amount of absolute poverty in a nation is deemed as a negative thing, and countries who allow any significant amount of their populace to live in such conditions are deemed to be amoral and inhumane. But hey, at least those types of countries don't have poor people watching HD TV, so maybe they're on to something.


The guy under the bridge doesn't have dependents?  More assumptions from you...

If he does, then he isn't caring for them. Would that be a fairly safe assumption?

Its this simple ---- If you're watching HDTV, you're not poor.  There's the entire flaw in your logic.  If you can't see that simple point, you are hopeless.

Then I suppose I am hopeless, because I fail to see the correlation between me purchasing a HDTV one minute, losing my job and running through my savings the next, and then seeking government assistance to feed my family. To you, having those things means that you can't be poor. To me, owning those things simply means that you haven't always been poor.

Do these other countries you speak of have "poor" people watching HDTV for their "absolute" poverty?  hahahaha

Uh, the other First World countries? Probably so. The Third World countries? Not likely. Which one would you prefer to live in?



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#34 : November 02, 2011, 12:12:12 AM

Lots of interesting points in this thread.  But I think we all can agree the system is broke, to what extent is open to debate.


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#35 : November 02, 2011, 12:20:32 AM

Ladyfan expanded on the point that I made previously, however, SnookAU is spot on a whole bunch of things, For example; Ladyfan doesn't NEED the internet to manage their affairs, it makes it easier and she has chosen to keep it. On the other hand, Snook is correct about the nice car and HDTV. I think Ladyfan has started along the right road by ditching things like cable so don't start thinking this is going to be a hit job on her.

I am not as enamoured with him as my wife, because as with most of these kind of guys what they say is 95% common sense, but a guy called Dave Ramsey puts a lot into perspective. Most of his schtick is about getting out of debt but a most of what he says can be applied to any lack of money type situation and it parallels Snook. i.e got an expensive car? Sell it and buy a cheaper one. Grill and Patio furniture? Put it on Craigs list and sell it. If it is something you want and not something you need (i.e. food), get rid of it and get the thing you need. Now we get to CBWx2 's point, what happens when you run out of things to sell? I am going to throw this back at you. If you expect me to make a sacrifice shouldn't you at least try as well? Not that I am saying you need to live in an empty shell of a house, but I have helped some folks and not helped others. The not bit usually being when they are drinking my beer, **CENSORED**ing how tough life is having arrived in their Caddy whatever SUV and parked it behind my 11 year old jeep that has a massive ding in the side cos some jerk smacked into it when I was doing the grocery shopping in Publix. Then pissed off without so much as a by your leave I hasten to add.

What I am saying is there is a lot that people can do but choose not to do. That is your perogative, but son't expect sympathy if I don't think you are trying. Ladyfan I believe is trying but has not yet hit the 'depths' as she still appears to have choices and options. In that respect I thank the Lord and hope things get better.
: November 02, 2011, 12:22:10 AM spartan

BucNY

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#36 : November 02, 2011, 08:09:53 AM

Actually, you are mistaken/  They do follow up and check.

I hear a lot of comments about nicely dressed people,living in nice home and driving nice cars with HD TV, cable, internet etc who are getting food stamps.   That would describe our household.  However, I lost my business due to a legal but unethical business decision my home office made.  My son-in-law was laid off, my daughter needs double knee surgery and cannot work.  However, before this, I made an annual six figure income.  We need the internet to take care of our affairs.  We used neighborhood wifi until they required a password.

Other people make comments when they see people with full grocery carts on food stamps which they assume means they are eating v ery very well.  Actually, most people on food stamps barely eat enough on food stamps.
Those big filled carts you see is because the family ran out of everything and ate ramen noodles for a week until their next month's food stamps come in.  Or had cereal for dinner.

Nobody from the former working middle class who is struggling right now wants their neighbors or friends to know what is going on.   That is one of the curses of the middle class or middle incomed.  Shame and keeping up with appearances.  The fact is these families do not have their cable hooked up ( we don't )  Only use their AC at night to sleep well.  Keep lights off.  Never go out to dinner, movies etc.  Must plan trips using car so that gas lasts.  That great car we have only uses premium but at least the car is paid for

I humbly use some of my circumstances to educate those of you who apparently have no idea  of the real, human suffering and despair going on in this country.  You think you know what it is you are seeing but you have no clue.
Are there people misusing the system.  Uh, duh.  However, it is unlikely you know who it is without knowing the people personally....

To me a sign of great people is compassion, generosity and the knowledge that we are all part of the human family.  .even those abusing the system are worthy of compassion.  imagine leading a life trying to always game authority and help that has been given.  This cannot be a life well lived, nor folks living in harmony and perhaps need our compassion to help them recover their dignity and become partners with the rest of us on Turtle Island.
Just sayin....

If you have an HDTV but are in need of money.... SELL IT.   Buy a cheaper TV on craigslist and pocket the difference.  That's too easy. 


That is it right there. If you are truly in desperate need of money, sell your TV, expensive cars, downsize your house. People seem to feel like it's their right to keep all of their stuff but yet take their piece of the government handout pie. Like I said before, it's no longer embarrassing to admit you can't make it and need some help, it's every American's right!

I'm afraid we're no longer helping that many people but rather enabling them.

Oh subject but in response to what another poster said. Many labor types jobs have a "cash" price. Hell even our gas stations have a "cash" price per gallon. Does anyone here think every cent of that "cash" price, in either case, gets claimed? HAHAHA. Like it or not, many systems get taken advantage of and we foot the bill for it.



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#37 : November 02, 2011, 08:47:16 AM

My family budgets its money correctly.  We save first before we spend anything each month.  I don't buy anything unless I have the actually CASH for it.  Its pretty simple.  Its called SACRIFICE.

its not called sacrifice, its called being responsible.

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CBWx2

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#38 : November 02, 2011, 09:46:50 AM

Actually, you are mistaken/  They do follow up and check.

I hear a lot of comments about nicely dressed people,living in nice home and driving nice cars with HD TV, cable, internet etc who are getting food stamps.   That would describe our household.  However, I lost my business due to a legal but unethical business decision my home office made.  My son-in-law was laid off, my daughter needs double knee surgery and cannot work.  However, before this, I made an annual six figure income.  We need the internet to take care of our affairs.  We used neighborhood wifi until they required a password.

Other people make comments when they see people with full grocery carts on food stamps which they assume means they are eating v ery very well.  Actually, most people on food stamps barely eat enough on food stamps.
Those big filled carts you see is because the family ran out of everything and ate ramen noodles for a week until their next month's food stamps come in.  Or had cereal for dinner.

Nobody from the former working middle class who is struggling right now wants their neighbors or friends to know what is going on.   That is one of the curses of the middle class or middle incomed.  Shame and keeping up with appearances.  The fact is these families do not have their cable hooked up ( we don't )  Only use their AC at night to sleep well.  Keep lights off.  Never go out to dinner, movies etc.  Must plan trips using car so that gas lasts.  That great car we have only uses premium but at least the car is paid for

I humbly use some of my circumstances to educate those of you who apparently have no idea  of the real, human suffering and despair going on in this country.  You think you know what it is you are seeing but you have no clue.
Are there people misusing the system.  Uh, duh.  However, it is unlikely you know who it is without knowing the people personally....

To me a sign of great people is compassion, generosity and the knowledge that we are all part of the human family.  .even those abusing the system are worthy of compassion.  imagine leading a life trying to always game authority and help that has been given.  This cannot be a life well lived, nor folks living in harmony and perhaps need our compassion to help them recover their dignity and become partners with the rest of us on Turtle Island.
Just sayin....

If you have an HDTV but are in need of money.... SELL IT.   Buy a cheaper TV on craigslist and pocket the difference.  That's too easy. 


That is it right there. If you are truly in desperate need of money, sell your TV, expensive cars, downsize your house. People seem to feel like it's their right to keep all of their stuff but yet take their piece of the government handout pie. Like I said before, it's no longer embarrassing to admit you can't make it and need some help, it's every American's right!

I'm afraid we're no longer helping that many people but rather enabling them.

It's really not that simple. Selling a TV isn't going to get you very far. I mean, how much money can you make off of a freaking TV set? Enough to get you through a few weeks, maybe? Downgrade your car? Okay, fine. Then what does that get you? Enough money to make it through a few months maybe? Then downgrade your home. Okay fine. That's assuming you can sell it for enough money to actually purchase a smaller home and have enough money after the purchase to make it worth it. Oh, and that's assuming you own the home to begin with. This is a joke of a "solution" to poverty, IMO.


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#39 : November 02, 2011, 09:50:20 AM

why would we add foreign aid into the equation when it is domestic aid that is the topic of dispute?

Why wouldn't we?  If you want to talk about the "extremely limited amount of resources that we Americans allocate to helping the poor," let's talk about all of the American money that used to help the poor or downtrodden.  Compared to the rest of the world, I think your argument suddenly becomes nil.



And thirdly, the US allocates roughly 11% of GDP to social programs. Most European and Asian countries allocate around double that amount.

Again, what does that mean in actual dollars and cents?  And again, what do those countries do on a foreign level?

If you want to use a phrase like the "extremely limited amount of resources" that are being used to help people, let's look at the whole picture.


CBWx2

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#40 : November 02, 2011, 10:20:21 AM

why would we add foreign aid into the equation when it is domestic aid that is the topic of dispute?

Why wouldn't we?  If you want to talk about the "extremely limited amount of resources that we Americans allocate to helping the poor," let's talk about all of the American money that used to help the poor or downtrodden.  Compared to the rest of the world, I think your argument suddenly becomes nil.

Not really. America doesn't give as much money in relation to GDP as other countries in foreign aid either. The top 5 most generous countries for foreign aid are Sweden (.5%), Denmark (.48%), the Netherlands (.45%), Norway (.4%), and France (.23%). The U.S. gives away .07% of GDP in foreign aid. That ties us with Greece and Spain for 2nd to last of the developed nations. New Zealand is the only country that gives less.

And thirdly, the US allocates roughly 11% of GDP to social programs. Most European and Asian countries allocate around double that amount.

Again, what does that mean in actual dollars and cents?  And again, what do those countries do on a foreign level?

If you want to use a phrase like the "extremely limited amount of resources" that are being used to help people, let's look at the whole picture.

I am. You want to quote a dollar amount in relation to countries that have much, much fewer people and much much smaller economies than we do. That's not looking at the whole picture, that's looking only at the piece of the picture you want to.


Biggs3535

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#41 : November 02, 2011, 10:47:50 AM

The U.S. gives away .07% of GDP in foreign aid. That ties us with Greece and Spain for 2nd to last of the developed nations. New Zealand is the only country that gives less.

Interesting.  Now let's wade through the spin and look at actual dollars.  In 2009, American gave over twice as much as the #2 country.  That's sounds like "extremely limited" to me.





That's not looking at the whole picture, that's looking only at the piece of the picture you want to.

I wonder if those countries receiving the aid care more amount the percentage or actual $$$ that they receive?  Tough one.


BucNY

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#42 : November 02, 2011, 10:53:40 AM

Actually, you are mistaken/  They do follow up and check.

I hear a lot of comments about nicely dressed people,living in nice home and driving nice cars with HD TV, cable, internet etc who are getting food stamps.   That would describe our household.  However, I lost my business due to a legal but unethical business decision my home office made.  My son-in-law was laid off, my daughter needs double knee surgery and cannot work.  However, before this, I made an annual six figure income.  We need the internet to take care of our affairs.  We used neighborhood wifi until they required a password.

Other people make comments when they see people with full grocery carts on food stamps which they assume means they are eating v ery very well.  Actually, most people on food stamps barely eat enough on food stamps.
Those big filled carts you see is because the family ran out of everything and ate ramen noodles for a week until their next month's food stamps come in.  Or had cereal for dinner.

Nobody from the former working middle class who is struggling right now wants their neighbors or friends to know what is going on.   That is one of the curses of the middle class or middle incomed.  Shame and keeping up with appearances.  The fact is these families do not have their cable hooked up ( we don't )  Only use their AC at night to sleep well.  Keep lights off.  Never go out to dinner, movies etc.  Must plan trips using car so that gas lasts.  That great car we have only uses premium but at least the car is paid for

I humbly use some of my circumstances to educate those of you who apparently have no idea  of the real, human suffering and despair going on in this country.  You think you know what it is you are seeing but you have no clue.
Are there people misusing the system.  Uh, duh.  However, it is unlikely you know who it is without knowing the people personally....

To me a sign of great people is compassion, generosity and the knowledge that we are all part of the human family.  .even those abusing the system are worthy of compassion.  imagine leading a life trying to always game authority and help that has been given.  This cannot be a life well lived, nor folks living in harmony and perhaps need our compassion to help them recover their dignity and become partners with the rest of us on Turtle Island.
Just sayin....

If you have an HDTV but are in need of money.... SELL IT.   Buy a cheaper TV on craigslist and pocket the difference.  That's too easy. 


That is it right there. If you are truly in desperate need of money, sell your TV, expensive cars, downsize your house. People seem to feel like it's their right to keep all of their stuff but yet take their piece of the government handout pie. Like I said before, it's no longer embarrassing to admit you can't make it and need some help, it's every American's right!

I'm afraid we're no longer helping that many people but rather enabling them.

It's really not that simple. Selling a TV isn't going to get you very far. I mean, how much money can you make off of a freaking TV set? Enough to get you through a few weeks, maybe? Downgrade your car? Okay, fine. Then what does that get you? Enough money to make it through a few months maybe? Then downgrade your home. Okay fine. That's assuming you can sell it for enough money to actually purchase a smaller home and have enough money after the purchase to make it worth it. Oh, and that's assuming you own the home to begin with. This is a joke of a "solution" to poverty, IMO.

This is not a solution to poverty!!!!! Where did I say that??? What I said is this....Every person, family should do EVERYTHING they can to stay above water. Not selling and getting rid of your luxuries because, hey it won't gain me that much is BS! Plain and simple. It is YOUR responsability to feed your family, not MINE. If you need it temporarily to get back on your feet, fine. But it should be the last move that gets made. So selling your $1000 TV for $300 is what should happen, sorry. You don't get welfare, food stamps and get to keep all the nice things you made decisions in buying.

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CBWx2

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#43 : November 02, 2011, 10:59:36 AM

The U.S. gives away .07% of GDP in foreign aid. That ties us with Greece and Spain for 2nd to last of the developed nations. New Zealand is the only country that gives less.

Interesting.  Now let's wade through the spin and look at actual dollars.  In 2009, American gave over twice as much as the #2 country.  That's sounds like "extremely limited" to me.





That's not looking at the whole picture, that's looking only at the piece of the picture you want to.

I wonder if those countries receiving the aid care more amount the percentage or actual $$$ that they receive?  Tough one.

Over half of that went to Iraq and Afghanistan, Biggs.


JavaRay

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#44 : November 02, 2011, 01:18:50 PM

Ladyfan, how much do you get each month in food stamps?

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