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Dolorous Jason

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#585 : March 26, 2013, 09:08:28 PM

awww, poor little spinmeister's wittle feelings are hurt .....

Yes , he mad.

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

spartan

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#586 : March 26, 2013, 09:13:19 PM

There is no way to indirectly support a social program. Either you support it monetarily, you support it with your time, or you don't support it. You invented a qualifier in which to argue against. Par for the course, I suppose.

A couple of things that stood out about that "study."

1. A survey of "12" churches. Great.

The author's study wasn't just a survey of 12 churches. Not even sure where you got that.

2. A lot of the reference to churches were individual churches. A lot of the Black, Baptist and other Protestant churches have a tendency to be pretty fragmented. Therefore their programs are more locally direct as the article suggest. i.e. food and clothe drives.

However, churches like the Catholic Church, some Baptist denominations, Presbyterians etc have a central structure which allows coordinated action. Subsequently, the Catholic church can, and does spend billions on "social" programs. That is at the diocese level for example which I am pretty confident does not come under the au**CENSORED**es of "congregational" action. That is on top of what is done locally.

This is true, but how much funding for these organizations comes from tithing, or from direct contributions? When you donate money specifically to St. Vincent de Paul, that is not a religious donation, it is a human services donation. The purpose of the research isn't to say that religious organizations as a whole don't engage in charitable acts, nor have I ever made that claim. The purpose was to show that religious donations, that is to say, donations made specifically to one's church, do not go towards funding social services, at least not in any great measure.

One of the studies was of 12 churches within walking distance,

"Consider a 2000 study by Livezey and his colleagues that looked at 12 churches within walking distance of Henry Horner Homes, a large public housing development in Chicago"

There was also one of 300 to be fair. Speaking of fair, I notice the figure they pluck out is MEDIAN. Not average, or typical. Median is probablty the most misleading statistic ever. Saying St. Vincent de Paul is not a religious donation is really splitting hairs. You have to be a practicing Catholic, run by Catholics and funded by Catholics. it was also started by a Catholic Priest. It does a pretty good job of feeding and looking after something like 14 million people in the US each year on a budget of abot $675 million.

Our Chruch raises somewhere in the area of $2.5 to $3 million per year. Plus $500K for the Bishops appeal. And that is aside from specific drives and appeals that might arise. Yes we have some overheads, we have a church,  community center, school etc, but what exactly do you think we do with that money?

Dolorous Jason

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#587 : March 26, 2013, 09:21:30 PM



Our Chruch raises somewhere in the area of $2.5 to $3 million per year. Plus $500K for the Bishops appeal. And that is aside from specific drives and appeals that might arise. Yes we have some overheads, we have a church,  community center, school etc, but what exactly do you think we do with that money?

Yes , but you never put Surf-n-Turf on the menu. Mikey Chaves is not impressed...

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

CBWx2

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#588 : March 26, 2013, 09:23:44 PM

awww, poor little spinmeister's wittle feelings are hurt ..... go cry to vinnie peanuts some more about mean olaf "flaming" and you guys can discuss "stalking" while you are at .....

Feelings hurt? Not at all. Just pointing out your blatant hypocrisy, you pathetic, lying little troll.


CalcuttaRain

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#589 : March 26, 2013, 09:36:11 PM

awww, poor little spinmeister's wittle feelings are hurt ..... go cry to vinnie peanuts some more about mean olaf "flaming" and you guys can discuss "stalking" while you are at .....

like a swiss watch . . . I know, I know . . .  CBW drew you in . . . . but that has nothing to do with you throwing me in the mix

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\\\\\\\'s Cancer Center

CBWx2

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#590 : March 26, 2013, 09:42:42 PM

Speaking of fair, I notice the figure they pluck out is MEDIAN. Not average, or typical. Median is probablty the most misleading statistic ever.

Average could be equally misleading, if not moreso.. Especially in a study like this. For example, if you are speaking on community outreach, or donations to charitable organizations conducted by 5 churches, four of those churches may donate $1000 a year towards social service programs that serve their communities, and that 5th one might donate $100,000 to social service programs. You would end up with an average of $20,800 per church, when 4 of the five churches sampled only contributed a minor fraction of that average to their communities. That gives a far more misleading representation of the impact that a particular church might have on a particular community than using the median of that same sample.

Saying St. Vincent de Paul is not a religious donation is really splitting hairs. You have to be a practicing Catholic, run by Catholics and funded by Catholics. it was also started by a Catholic Priest. It does a pretty good job of feeding and looking after something like 14 million people in the US each year on a budget of abot $675 million.

I've donated to many Catholic charities throughout my life, and since I am not a Catholic, nor would I have chosen to donate to them if they only provided services for Catholics, or if the purpose of their mission was to teach Catholicism to the community rather than to simply feed or cloth the poor in the community, I would in no way characterize that donation as a religious one.

Our Chruch raises somewhere in the area of $2.5 to $3 million per year. Plus $500K for the Bishops appeal. And that is aside from specific drives and appeals that might arise. Yes we have some overheads, we have a church,  community center, school etc, but what exactly do you think we do with that money?

The study doesn't suggest that no church does what you are saying that yours does. What it suggests is that for every one church like yours, their are hundreds of churches in hundreds of communities not like yours. To point to your church and use it as a representation of what the average church does in the community is to give a false representation of what the average church does in the community.
: March 26, 2013, 09:47:04 PM CBWx2


CalcuttaRain

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#591 : March 26, 2013, 09:52:19 PM

Speaking of fair, I notice the figure they pluck out is MEDIAN. Not average, or typical. Median is probablty the most misleading statistic ever.

Average could be equally misleading, if not moreso.. Especially in a study like this. For example, if you are speaking on community outreach, or donations to charitable organizations conducted by 5 churches, four of those churches may donate $1000 a year towards social service programs that serve their communities, and that 5th one might donate $100,000 to social service programs. You would end up with an average of $20,800 per church, when 4 of the five churches sampled only contributed a minor fraction of that average to their communities. That gives a far more misleading representation of the impact that a particular church might have on a particular community than using the median of that same sample.

Saying St. Vincent de Paul is not a religious donation is really splitting hairs. You have to be a practicing Catholic, run by Catholics and funded by Catholics. it was also started by a Catholic Priest. It does a pretty good job of feeding and looking after something like 14 million people in the US each year on a budget of abot $675 million.

I've donated to many Catholic charities throughout my life, and since I am not a Catholic, nor would I have chosen to donate to them if they only provided services for Catholics, or if the purpose of their mission was to teach Catholicism to the community rather than to simply feed or cloth the poor in the community, I would in no way characterize that donation as a religious one.

Our Chruch raises somewhere in the area of $2.5 to $3 million per year. Plus $500K for the Bishops appeal. And that is aside from specific drives and appeals that might arise. Yes we have some overheads, we have a church,  community center, school etc, but what exactly do you think we do with that money?

The study doesn't suggest that no church does what you are saying that yours does. What it suggests is that for every one church like yours, their are hundreds of churches in hundreds of communities not like yours.


I am stepping out of this USELESS discussion but one comment on the one thing I just read above.  This ^^^^^ discussion is VINTAGE CBW. 

CBW made a statement that flies in the face of reality and then tried to back it up by passing off an advocacy piece as FACT.  Called to mat, rather than just acknowledging it, CBW's standard operating procedure is to throw up the BLIZZARD you see above, selectively dissecting the minutia of the report to cover up/distract from how far off base he is.  Proof of that tactic is the COMPLETELY NONSENSE that follows, like  CBW saying, apparently, that a donation to St. Vincent de Paul's is NOT a religious donation?  Spartan called that splitting hairs, I say that it is complete and utter nonsense, but more importantly it is PRECISELY the type of nonsensical hair splitting that the author of that report used to reach the CONCLUSIONS that CBW portrays as facts.  It's a complete circular bunch of nonsense brought to you by CBW

CBW, try this once and save everyone years on their life:  "oops, you're right  . . . my bad."

ridiculous waste of time   :D

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\\\\\\\'s Cancer Center

olafberserker

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#592 : March 26, 2013, 10:29:54 PM

awww, poor little spinmeister's wittle feelings are hurt ..... go cry to vinnie peanuts some more about mean olaf "flaming" and you guys can discuss "stalking" while you are at .....

Feelings hurt? Not at all. Just pointing out your blatant hypocrisy, you pathetic, lying little troll.

of course you are you poor wittle spinmeister .......  do you ever get tired of being completely used and abused in threads .... lol

olafberserker

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#593 : March 26, 2013, 10:32:15 PM

awww, poor little spinmeister's wittle feelings are hurt ..... go cry to vinnie peanuts some more about mean olaf "flaming" and you guys can discuss "stalking" while you are at .....

like a swiss watch . . . I know, I know . . .  CBW drew you in . . . . but that has nothing to do with you throwing me in the mix

you and cbw are one in the same especially since he has decided to stoop to your level of completely making crap up since he can't sniff "winning" ANY discussion without doing so

spartan

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#594 : March 26, 2013, 11:26:28 PM

Speaking of fair, I notice the figure they pluck out is MEDIAN. Not average, or typical. Median is probablty the most misleading statistic ever.

Average could be equally misleading, if not moreso.. Especially in a study like this. For example, if you are speaking on community outreach, or donations to charitable organizations conducted by 5 churches, four of those churches may donate $1000 a year towards social service programs that serve their communities, and that 5th one might donate $100,000 to social service programs. You would end up with an average of $20,800 per church, when 4 of the five churches sampled only contributed a minor fraction of that average to their communities. That gives a far more misleading representation of the impact that a particular church might have on a particular community than using the median of that same sample.

Saying St. Vincent de Paul is not a religious donation is really splitting hairs. You have to be a practicing Catholic, run by Catholics and funded by Catholics. it was also started by a Catholic Priest. It does a pretty good job of feeding and looking after something like 14 million people in the US each year on a budget of abot $675 million.

I've donated to many Catholic charities throughout my life, and since I am not a Catholic, nor would I have chosen to donate to them if they only provided services for Catholics, or if the purpose of their mission was to teach Catholicism to the community rather than to simply feed or cloth the poor in the community, I would in no way characterize that donation as a religious one.

Our Chruch raises somewhere in the area of $2.5 to $3 million per year. Plus $500K for the Bishops appeal. And that is aside from specific drives and appeals that might arise. Yes we have some overheads, we have a church,  community center, school etc, but what exactly do you think we do with that money?

The study doesn't suggest that no church does what you are saying that yours does. What it suggests is that for every one church like yours, their are hundreds of churches in hundreds of communities not like yours. To point to your church and use it as a representation of what the average church does in the community is to give a false representation of what the average church does in the community.

So instead of dissecting what each and every church does, splitting them into meaningless statistics, maybe you should just look at what the sum benefit is.

Dolorous Jason

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#595 : March 27, 2013, 07:45:43 AM

awww, poor little spinmeister's wittle feelings are hurt ..... go cry to vinnie peanuts some more about mean olaf "flaming" and you guys can discuss "stalking" while you are at .....

Feelings hurt? Not at all. Just pointing out your blatant hypocrisy, you pathetic, lying little troll.

of course you are you poor wittle spinmeister .......  do you ever get tired of being completely used and abused in threads .... lol


LOL

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

Dolorous Jason

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#596 : March 27, 2013, 07:56:45 AM




I am stepping out of this USELESS discussion but one comment on the one thing I just read above.  This ^^^^^ discussion is VINTAGE CBW. 

CBW made a statement that flies in the face of reality and then tried to back it up by passing off an advocacy piece as FACT.  Called to mat, rather than just acknowledging it, CBW's standard operating procedure is to throw up the BLIZZARD you see above, selectively dissecting the minutia of the report to cover up/distract from how far off base he is.  Proof of that tactic is the COMPLETELY NONSENSE that follows, like  CBW saying, apparently, that a donation to St. Vincent de Paul's is NOT a religious donation?  Spartan called that splitting hairs, I say that it is complete and utter nonsense, but more importantly it is PRECISELY the type of nonsensical hair splitting that the author of that report used to reach the CONCLUSIONS that CBW portrays as facts.  It's a complete circular bunch of nonsense brought to you by CBW

CBW, try this once and save everyone years on their life:  "oops, you're right  . . . my bad."

ridiculous waste of time   :D

This pretty much sums it up.

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

dbucfan

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#597 : March 27, 2013, 10:37:35 AM

Speaking of fair, I notice the figure they pluck out is MEDIAN. Not average, or typical. Median is probablty the most misleading statistic ever.

Average could be equally misleading, if not moreso.. Especially in a study like this. For example, if you are speaking on community outreach, or donations to charitable organizations conducted by 5 churches, four of those churches may donate $1000 a year towards social service programs that serve their communities, and that 5th one might donate $100,000 to social service programs. You would end up with an average of $20,800 per church, when 4 of the five churches sampled only contributed a minor fraction of that average to their communities. That gives a far more misleading representation of the impact that a particular church might have on a particular community than using the median of that same sample.

Saying St. Vincent de Paul is not a religious donation is really splitting hairs. You have to be a practicing Catholic, run by Catholics and funded by Catholics. it was also started by a Catholic Priest. It does a pretty good job of feeding and looking after something like 14 million people in the US each year on a budget of abot $675 million.

I've donated to many Catholic charities throughout my life, and since I am not a Catholic, nor would I have chosen to donate to them if they only provided services for Catholics, or if the purpose of their mission was to teach Catholicism to the community rather than to simply feed or cloth the poor in the community, I would in no way characterize that donation as a religious one.

Our Chruch raises somewhere in the area of $2.5 to $3 million per year. Plus $500K for the Bishops appeal. And that is aside from specific drives and appeals that might arise. Yes we have some overheads, we have a church,  community center, school etc, but what exactly do you think we do with that money?

The study doesn't suggest that no church does what you are saying that yours does. What it suggests is that for every one church like yours, their are hundreds of churches in hundreds of communities not like yours. To point to your church and use it as a representation of what the average church does in the community is to give a false representation of what the average church does in the community.
While the overall donations vary by size of the parish, Spartan's description of his Church fits the Catholic Churches I have been a member of, in Pennsylvania, Florida, and Connecticut.  Note that only represents 7 of them that I personally know of, so the others might all be as CBW's source states.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

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#598 : March 27, 2013, 01:53:00 PM

Just out of curiosity, how much money out of your wallet do you think goes to pay for food stamps? I'll give you a hint. The average person probably loses more in the cushion's of their couch in a given week.

Last year the program cost $78 billion. That is a lot of cushions.

But ....but.....comrade said.......reading comprehension....... and 10 dollars !!! lol

My bad. I was using the old figures. If that program costs 78 billion a year then that means the burden has risen significantly. It now costs the average taxpayer $16.90 a year to fund the food stamp program. Approximately 33 cents a week. You might be able to buy that DVD from Wal-Mart afterall, just so long as you stay away from the new releases.


I must have learned math from the old Conservative math teachers and not learned this new Liberal math.

$78,000,000,000 program cost

divided by 118,000,000 tax payers who actually paid taxes (because if you paid zero taxes or got a return larger than what you paid in, you have NO BURDEN)

equals $661/yr NOT $16.90. And $661/yr = $12.71/wk



Now here is the math that bugs me.  The program costs $78 billion. There are 42 million recipients (this includes dependent children, etc. ) getting an average of $125/ mo. well $42m*$105*12 (month per yr) equals $63 billion.

Where is the other $15 billion going???????


Dolorous Jason

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#599 : March 27, 2013, 04:55:45 PM

Just out of curiosity, how much money out of your wallet do you think goes to pay for food stamps? I'll give you a hint. The average person probably loses more in the cushion's of their couch in a given week.

Last year the program cost $78 billion. That is a lot of cushions.

But ....but.....comrade said.......reading comprehension....... and 10 dollars !!! lol

My bad. I was using the old figures. If that program costs 78 billion a year then that means the burden has risen significantly. It now costs the average taxpayer $16.90 a year to fund the food stamp program. Approximately 33 cents a week. You might be able to buy that DVD from Wal-Mart afterall, just so long as you stay away from the new releases.


I must have learned math from the old Conservative math teachers and not learned this new Liberal math.

$78,000,000,000 program cost

divided by 118,000,000 tax payers who actually paid taxes (because if you paid zero taxes or got a return larger than what you paid in, you have NO BURDEN)

equals $661/yr NOT $16.90. And $661/yr = $12.71/wk



Now here is the math that bugs me.  The program costs $78 billion. There are 42 million recipients (this includes dependent children, etc. ) getting an average of $125/ mo. well $42m*$105*12 (month per yr) equals $63 billion.

Where is the other $15 billion going???????


To the bureacracy. Bureaucracies have a TON of overhead. You just hit on another reason why government is so inefficient.  Just to run these gigantic federal departments takes billions of dollars , and that's before one dime's worth of food touches a poor person's plate.

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           
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