The buck stops with Glazers

[VinBucFan]

TOTAL MONEY SPENT is insufficient. How's that? They didn't spend enough, didn't put enough effort in AND, on top of that, spent foolishly when they did spend. Clear enough?

Not to your point, no, because the total money spent this season is tied to the roster this season and the roster this season is loaded with rookies.  Look at the Colts payroll before the build-up that started with Manning.  It was almost the lowest in the league. Not that way now, right?

So, not only did the Bucs spend enough this season (based on their roster), they arguably spent more than they had to or should have if you agree Black and Joseph are being overpaid (you explain away this spending by calling it "foolish," so the Glazers -- who own the Bucs and ManU and countless other businesses are not just cheap, they are "foolish"?).

Bottom line you see unused cap space as "cheapness" but that does not reconcile with the external factors.

[VinBucFan]

The biggest misconception when talking about the Bucs' payroll is that more money would make the team better. The problem with that is most of the Bucs' best players are their least expensive and their worst players are the highest paid. So you're not going to replace all the Bucs' cheap players and get better. LeGarrette Blount is the best RB by far and he's making under $1M. Most of the time Mike Williams is the best WR and he's making under $1M. Some people think Jeremy Zuttah is the best OL and he's making under $1M. Adrian Clayborn and Michael Bennett are the most consistent DL and they're making under $2M. At $6M Freeman is making half what most QB's make.

Then you have a bottom 5 RT making $5M, a JAG RG making over $8, a part time C making $6M, a JAG TE making $6M, a part time DT making $10M, and the worst OLB in the NFL making $6M.

As Biggs has been saying, the Bucs' problem is they're not spending money wisely.

Too funny.  You actually typed -- with a straight face I presume -- that the Bucs are not "spending money wisely" because they are paying a low amount for KEY PLAYERS?  Seriously, is that the argument?

No problem with disagreeing with the talent level of the other players (BTW -- who is the part-time DT making $10M -- I am definitely curious) but now the fans are not only interested in making sure the Glazers spend money but that they spend it "wisely"

[VinBucFan]

a part time DT making $10M

FRG -- who are you referring to?

[jerseybucsfan]

OK, let's put it another way since you're not getting me: Had they spent a tad more than the money they spent on Black, could they have gotten a better player at his position? Had they re-signed Caddy or gotten R. Brown or Bush would they be better at the position? I'm talking about wisdom AND spending more. If they were REALLY wise, they didn't necessarily have to spend more. But I'm being realistic. Obviously you can always spend more on lousy players.

[VinBucFan]

OK, let's put it another way since you're not getting me: Had they spent a tad more than the money they spent on Black, could they have gotten a better player at his position? Had they re-signed Caddy or gotten R. Brown or Bush would they be better at the position? I'm talking about wisdom AND spending more. If they were REALLY wise, they didn't necessarily have to spend more. But I'm being realistic. Obviously you can always spend more on lousy players.

But you assign their difference with you to "cheapness" right?  In other words, because they could not possibly have a different view then you, the only reason the Bucs did not get someone other than Black or re-sign Caddy or gotten R Bush is because they were "cheap" right? 

[FinkleisEinhorn]

The biggest misconception when talking about the Bucs' payroll is that more money would make the team better. The problem with that is most of the Bucs' best players are their least expensive and their worst players are the highest paid. So you're not going to replace all the Bucs' cheap players and get better. LeGarrette Blount is the best RB by far and he's making under $1M. Most of the time Mike Williams is the best WR and he's making under $1M. Some people think Jeremy Zuttah is the best OL and he's making under $1M. Adrian Clayborn and Michael Bennett are the most consistent DL and they're making under $2M. At $6M Freeman is making half what most QB's make.

Then you have a bottom 5 RT making $5M, a JAG RG making over $8, a part time C making $6M, a JAG TE making $6M, a part time DT making $10M, and the worst OLB in the NFL making $6M.

As Biggs has been saying, the Bucs' problem is they're not spending money wisely.

Too funny.  You actually typed -- with a straight face I presume -- that the Bucs are not "spending money wisely" because they are paying a low amount for KEY PLAYERS?  Seriously, is that the argument?

No problem with disagreeing with the talent level of the other players (BTW -- who is the part-time DT making $10M -- I am definitely curious) but now the fans are not only interested in making sure the Glazers spend money but that they spend it "wisely"

Not sure what is so difficult to understand. He's not complaining about the lower-priced good players. He's only complaining about the over-priced trash. However, when it's time to renew the contract of the good players, it will be more difficult to sign them since we have so much money tied up in said trash.  And you're laughing at the guy for wanting the team to spend the money wisely? Is that so outrageous?  You think giving Quincy freaking Black $6 mil a year is wise?  Just because the Glazer boys fell into a prosperous family business does not make every decision they make gold.  Also, you keep stating we're not cheap because of how much we signed this off-season.  Look at the bigger picture.  We're still wayyyy below the average roster salary.

P.S. - He's talking about McCoy. Played in only half the games he's been here.

[DefenseWins]

We've been the lowest spending (or close to) team for years.

It all starts there.

We draft prospects, overhype them, and then expect the world out of them. We hang these young guys out to dry!

We put these prospects around other prospects, with a couple of veterans sprinkled in, and expect consistent growth. Can't expect much out of guys that are not proven pro's/ Morris has very few PROVEN guys.

Meanwhile, Dominik is salvaging the unrestricted free agent scrap heap. with absolutely no wiggle room for error.

The BS plan that they are following is not pro-grade.

The base level requirement for this cheap model is the idea that we "do" sign our homegrown talent.  So, signing Davin and Back were necessary to avoid complete contradiction.

We signed our own guys. We based those decisions on the "competition" of unproven guys that we have here. Does that skew our analysis?

That people accepted that we could sign no outside guys because we have to re-sign guys our own guys is ridiculous and wayyyyyy ahead of schedule.

The Bucs GM job description is not the norm. Salvaging and finding undrafted free agents, and waiting for the draft. Little to no margin for error.

The Bucs coaching job description is not the norm. Get really young, unproven guys to play above their head, game after game.

Ever wonder how McCoy, Price, Foster, etc, would do, if they actually had a steady team around them?

It's a joke that people defend this operation, while going after the ill-equipped guys as if they have real NFL resources.

....

[DefenseWins]

Just to be clear about the intention of my unclear rant....

...I understand the criticisms of Morris, coaching staff, and Dom.

However, to call them out for perceived failings while not recognizing the inherent handicaps that come with their specific situation, is inaccurate and unfair to them. Especially, because unlike the Glazers, we can see firsthand that Morris tries and cares about this organization. He is fully invested.

[VinBucFan]

The biggest misconception when talking about the Bucs' payroll is that more money would make the team better. The problem with that is most of the Bucs' best players are their least expensive and their worst players are the highest paid. So you're not going to replace all the Bucs' cheap players and get better. LeGarrette Blount is the best RB by far and he's making under $1M. Most of the time Mike Williams is the best WR and he's making under $1M. Some people think Jeremy Zuttah is the best OL and he's making under $1M. Adrian Clayborn and Michael Bennett are the most consistent DL and they're making under $2M. At $6M Freeman is making half what most QB's make.

Then you have a bottom 5 RT making $5M, a JAG RG making over $8, a part time C making $6M, a JAG TE making $6M, a part time DT making $10M, and the worst OLB in the NFL making $6M.

As Biggs has been saying, the Bucs' problem is they're not spending money wisely.

Too funny.  You actually typed -- with a straight face I presume -- that the Bucs are not "spending money wisely" because they are paying a low amount for KEY PLAYERS?  Seriously, is that the argument?

No problem with disagreeing with the talent level of the other players (BTW -- who is the part-time DT making $10M -- I am definitely curious) but now the fans are not only interested in making sure the Glazers spend money but that they spend it "wisely"

Not sure what is so difficult to understand. He's not complaining about the lower-priced good players. He's only complaining about the over-priced trash. However, when it's time to renew the contract of the good players, it will be more difficult to sign them since we have so much money tied up in said trash.  And you're laughing at the guy for wanting the team to spend the money wisely? Is that so outrageous?  You think giving Quincy freaking Black $6 mil a year is wise?  Just because the Glazer boys fell into a prosperous family business does not make every decision they make gold.  Also, you keep stating we're not cheap because of how much we signed this off-season.  Look at the bigger picture.  We're still wayyyy below the average roster salary.

P.S. - He's talking about McCoy. Played in only half the games he's been here.

I know he is talking about McCoy and that is why it is so ridiculous.  As if the Bucs did not spend money wisely by giving a contract to McCoy.  FRG should be embarassed to use that kind of in the moment, ridiculous hindsight to say it was not spent wisely at the time.  But alas "8-40" FRG cannot help himself.

And yes, it is funny that people are telling the "cheap" Glazers to spend wisely.  Aside from the very remote issue you raise (i.e. too much on trash so can't sign quality) the argumet is laughable. Nobody signed now will keep the Bucs from re-signing those young guys and the payroll will go up and a new "cheap" argument will surface

[VinBucFan]

Meanwhile, Dominik is salvaging the unrestricted free agent scrap heap. with absolutely no wiggle room for error.

The BS plan that they are following is not pro-grade.

The Packers, Colts and Steelers would beg to differ.  Here's one of many blurbs you can find on the Internet about, fro example, the Packers doing EXACTLY what you say is NOT PRO GRADE:

The Packers’ knack for discovering overlooked players and turning them into contributors makes Green Bay a popular landing place for athletes like So’oto, a 6-foot-3, 263-pounder who shifted from tight end to linebacker to defensive end in college and did not make an impact until his senior year.

Ashley So’oto did not know that about the Packers. But Frank Bauer, So’oto’s California-based agent and a former defensive coordinator at the University of the Pacific, did. He assured So’oto that Green Bay’s coaches would work with him and afford him a real chance to make the team, rather than use him as training camp fodder.

“There are certain people you can trust,” Bauer said in a telephone interview from his Compton, Calif., office. “I just felt he had a good shot with the Packers, and it worked out.

“I don’t have the secret. All I know is the Green Bay Packers have done a really good job as far as scouting and finding players.”

General Manager Ted Thompson, the football operations director Reggie McKenzie and the scouting director John Dorsey were all hired and mentored by Ron Wolf, the team’s former general manager, who stressed scouting and developing from within. The Packers let linebacker Nick Barnett, left guard Daryn Colledge and fullback Korey Hall walk away in free agency to get under the newly restored salary cap, presuming they had replacements in-house or a phone call away.

Many of them are not high draft choices. Thirteen of the Packers’ 53 players were chosen in the sixth or seventh rounds — not all by Green Bay — and 14 were not drafted at all.

“I know the powers-that-be in this organization will give me some good kids, and I’m good with that,” said the outside linebackers coach Kevin Greene, whose position group includes three undrafted players, among them So’oto and his fellow rookie Jamari Lattimore. “I have no fear about any kind of lack of depth,” Greene said.

Frequent roster turnover under Thompson, who became general manager in 2005, made the Packers the youngest team in the league on the opening weekend for four consecutive seasons, from 2006 to 2009, and the fifth youngest last season. Nevertheless, the Packers reached the playoffs three of the last four seasons, with one N.F.C. North title, in 2007

[Feel Real Good]

The biggest misconception when talking about the Bucs' payroll is that more money would make the team better. The problem with that is most of the Bucs' best players are their least expensive and their worst players are the highest paid. So you're not going to replace all the Bucs' cheap players and get better. LeGarrette Blount is the best RB by far and he's making under $1M. Most of the time Mike Williams is the best WR and he's making under $1M. Some people think Jeremy Zuttah is the best OL and he's making under $1M. Adrian Clayborn and Michael Bennett are the most consistent DL and they're making under $2M. At $6M Freeman is making half what most QB's make.

Then you have a bottom 5 RT making $5M, a JAG RG making over $8, a part time C making $6M, a JAG TE making $6M, a part time DT making $10M, and the worst OLB in the NFL making $6M.

As Biggs has been saying, the Bucs' problem is they're not spending money wisely.

Too funny.  You actually typed -- with a straight face I presume -- that the Bucs are not "spending money wisely" because they are paying a low amount for KEY PLAYERS?  Seriously, is that the argument?

No problem with disagreeing with the talent level of the other players (BTW -- who is the part-time DT making $10M -- I am definitely curious) but now the fans are not only interested in making sure the Glazers spend money but that they spend it "wisely"

Not sure what is so difficult to understand. He's not complaining about the lower-priced good players. He's only complaining about the over-priced trash. However, when it's time to renew the contract of the good players, it will be more difficult to sign them since we have so much money tied up in said trash.  And you're laughing at the guy for wanting the team to spend the money wisely? Is that so outrageous?  You think giving Quincy freaking Black $6 mil a year is wise?  Just because the Glazer boys fell into a prosperous family business does not make every decision they make gold.  Also, you keep stating we're not cheap because of how much we signed this off-season.  Look at the bigger picture.  We're still wayyyy below the average roster salary.

P.S. - He's talking about McCoy. Played in only half the games he's been here.

I know he is talking about McCoy and that is why it is so ridiculous.  As if the Bucs did not spend money wisely by giving a contract to McCoy.  FRG should be embarassed to use that kind of in the moment, ridiculous hindsight to say it was not spent wisely at the time.  But alas "8-40" FRG cannot help himself.

And yes, it is funny that people are telling the "cheap" Glazers to spend wisely.  Aside from the very remote issue you raise (i.e. too much on trash so can't sign quality) the argumet is laughable. Nobody signed now will keep the Bucs from re-signing those young guys and the payroll will go up and a new "cheap" argument will surface

So you don't object to my "part time C" comment? Interesting.

[DefenseWins]

Meanwhile, Dominik is salvaging the unrestricted free agent scrap heap. with absolutely no wiggle room for error.

The BS plan that they are following is not pro-grade.

The Packers, Colts and Steelers would beg to differ.  Here's one of many blurbs you can find on the Internet about, fro example, the Packers doing EXACTLY what you say is NOT PRO GRADE:

The Packers’ knack for discovering overlooked players and turning them into contributors makes Green Bay a popular landing place for athletes like So’oto, a 6-foot-3, 263-pounder who shifted from tight end to linebacker to defensive end in college and did not make an impact until his senior year.

Ashley So’oto did not know that about the Packers. But Frank Bauer, So’oto’s California-based agent and a former defensive coordinator at the University of the Pacific, did. He assured So’oto that Green Bay’s coaches would work with him and afford him a real chance to make the team, rather than use him as training camp fodder.

“There are certain people you can trust,” Bauer said in a telephone interview from his Compton, Calif., office. “I just felt he had a good shot with the Packers, and it worked out.

“I don’t have the secret. All I know is the Green Bay Packers have done a really good job as far as scouting and finding players.”

General Manager Ted Thompson, the football operations director Reggie McKenzie and the scouting director John Dorsey were all hired and mentored by Ron Wolf, the team’s former general manager, who stressed scouting and developing from within. The Packers let linebacker Nick Barnett, left guard Daryn Colledge and fullback Korey Hall walk away in free agency to get under the newly restored salary cap, presuming they had replacements in-house or a phone call away.

Many of them are not high draft choices. Thirteen of the Packers’ 53 players were chosen in the sixth or seventh rounds — not all by Green Bay — and 14 were not drafted at all.

“I know the powers-that-be in this organization will give me some good kids, and I’m good with that,” said the outside linebackers coach Kevin Greene, whose position group includes three undrafted players, among them So’oto and his fellow rookie Jamari Lattimore. “I have no fear about any kind of lack of depth,” Greene said.

Frequent roster turnover under Thompson, who became general manager in 2005, made the Packers the youngest team in the league on the opening weekend for four consecutive seasons, from 2006 to 2009, and the fifth youngest last season. Nevertheless, the Packers reached the playoffs three of the last four seasons, with one N.F.C. North title, in 2007

Your example is unfit. Even if the Bucs had all the exact same dynamic that the Packers had/have, citing 1 of 31 other teams is far from a correlative connection.

[DefenseWins]

Look, lots of bs is passed of here as fact. I'm not coming from some crazy angle, insisting I'm perfectly right. The evidence is stacking up.

I'm disappointed by the lies. So much of what they have said and done only ads up to saving money, not being efficient.

What is shocking, is that so many people are being fooled by this!

One day we'll all look back at this with our new screen names, and agree how obvious and sad this situation was.

[tatmanfish]

They can no longer be cheap as the cap floor is returning in full within a season or two. Bucs are currently around $100mil in salary cap.

If this were any of the last couple years, I would agree completely they have went on a cheap route. Partly due to the way they wanted to rebuild the team with draft picks and youth. Given most of the roster has been drafted in the last 3 years and none of them are due for extensions, the salary cap isnt going to be all that much.

the only real argument I can give anyone is regarding FAs. They have signed their own guys to significant contracts though regardless of how anyone feels if the overpaid. Overpaying is not something cheap people do for anything. Now bringing in outside FAs, I cant say much as most everyone has had their eye on at least one outside FA other than a P(no matter how good he is).

Other than that, its all pretty simple logic to digest. If you still have feelings of overwhelming cheapness beyond that....well you just have a preconceived notion and an agenda that will not change no matter what they do with their money short of going over the cap.

[DefenseWins]

Bottom line you see unused cap space as "cheapness" but that does not reconcile with the external factors.

I see a correlation with:

Rising ticket costs with losing seasons.
Declined fan interest.
Spending lowest in league in last several years.
Having youngest team in league.
No/little depth at key positions.
Propaganda about needing to save money for guys that have not even proven that they can consistently produce in NFL.. (the height of crap)

"It's not about this year"... Heard that?

What discount have the fans received for the discounted product?

On one hand, Dominik is not doing well enough, on the other hand, Dominik is a brilliant genius ushering the new way of doing business in the NFL. lol.. Which is it today?