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A New Momentum

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#15 : November 14, 2011, 08:13:40 PM

I appreciate the breakdown ADW and it makes sense. I think we clearly are not using our personnel correctly and poor coaching is a huge factor in that. I believe, however, that having a true number 1 receiver could really open up things for everyone else. I just don't like this assumption that the Bucs are "set" at wide receiver because they have a bunch of young guys. This team desperately needs a true "go-to" target that can allow coverages to be rolled to one side and giving space for the Mike Williams' of the world to operate. Of course it would also help if we could run the ball consistently...

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#16 : November 14, 2011, 08:14:33 PM

Im not sold on Floyd. he is simply bigger and stronger tha colleg DBs. And he doesnt have elite speed. He may clock a 4.4 at best. But Dez Bryant clocked a 4.5 so??? Speaking of Dez. If Blackmon is around I dont see how you can pass on him. How good can he be? People around Okla St. say he is head and sholders better than Dez Bryant was when he was there.

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#17 : November 14, 2011, 08:15:04 PM

This is going to be a long post, but I will try to make it as brief as possible.

Primarily, the idea that a team needs a #1 WR to me is an overrated part of the NFL for a variety of reasons.  Given how pass happy the league is, the value of a #1 WR diminishes as more WR's are put on the field.  Basically the more WR's on the field it is harder for a defense to shut down a single WR.  When most teams ran pro sets back in the day, two WR's was the norm, thus it was imperative to have two quality WR's that could be jams.  Especially, when going into max protect, which is why you need two smaller shifty guys.  Olson wants to run a pro set style offense (I formation) but he doesn't have the personnel to do it on the offensive line, QB, RB, or at WR.  Specifically, as I mentioned above you need WR's that are shifty that can beat jams one on one.  Furthermore, Olson misunderstands the original spirit of the Jon Gruden offense.  While Gruden's offense was oriented with a lot of I formations, he favored three WR sets for a reason.  Because of the larger bodied WR's it would create mismatches against a LB, nickel CB, safety etc, and it is HARD to jam the slot guy where most of the mismatches happen in a Gruden oriented offense.  Gruden had to resort back to two WR offense because the LT play was abysmal, and he had to protect the QB, but doing so the offense suffered.  If it were not for Galloway it would have been really bad, but the offense chugged forward.

Based on what I have seen Spurlock needs to be on the field more as a flanker or split end, and Briscoe as well.  Mike Williams ideally is a slot guy and rotate with Parker for that.  Sammie is the ideal #4 WR in four wide formations because he can locate zone soft spots.  Benn is your deep threat decoy, or post/go route guy. 

You can't have MW on the field so much if Olson insists on so many two WR sets as MW doesn't have the nimbleness to beat jams, or speed to generate separation.  He isn't Joey Galloway that can threaten with speed, so don't put him in situations like this.

Great post and good analysis ...couple with the fact that in my opinion (I know stated many times), Freeman is purposely targetting (i.e. staring down) Williams (and Winslow on 3rd down) and holding onto the ball waiting for their route to open that the other WR routes are being ignored.  This falls on coaching not only to get the WR's on the field that are producing but to do what they can to get Freeman to go through his progressions.   

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#18 : November 14, 2011, 08:16:38 PM

K2 filled that role, and in a way still does, but his knees are shot and Olson has him running a bunch of short drag routes where everyone knows K2 is not really capable of generating YAC anymore.  I will not accuse Olson of having a Shoop-esque offensive design because WR's downfield were open in yesterdays game but Freeman pretty much did not see them or has become gunshy.




: November 14, 2011, 08:18:50 PM alldaway

Timbuc2

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#19 : November 14, 2011, 08:18:12 PM

90% of winning a battle with the DB is the sell. You see it all of the time from WRs from other teams where they make a cut and bury that plant foot. You can gain separation just from a good sell and we were taught that in high school.

When you do that you have the majority of DBs guessing for that split second. The only recievers that I have seen do that this year effectively is Briscoe and Parker but I don't see them all every play.

I do know that when they rewind a play and you look at our receivers there is no sell. They are just running down the field and this even talking about them getting jammed at the line. Which is doubly bad if you don't have a sell.

Thats what Williams has lacked especially when the corner is playing close to the line. his stutter step move is terrible and it has no affect on the corner. Santonio Holmes is really good with "selling" (as you put it). Thats the skillset I would like to see here

Agreed, love to see it here also.

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#20 : November 14, 2011, 08:29:11 PM

Posted by: A New Momentum
on: Today at 08:01:09 PM

    Insert Quote


I agree with that sentiment JohnBuc. I think that the playcalling and Freeman's regression are making this WR corps look worse than it is, but I still believe this is only an average group at best. I'd say it is a group of maybe one number 2 and a bunch of 3's and 4's. We really need a gamechanger. NOT just a speed Desean Jackson type either.




Agreed. A big part of getting open is route combinations and play calling. Its like a domino affect. Olsons playcalling feeding into Freeman regression wich is feeding into the crappy WR play.

BTownBucFan

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#21 : November 14, 2011, 08:30:17 PM

I think many have been already.  I think we have some decent 2 & 3 WR guys, but not a true #1.  BUT, even with that said, I still think there are some bigger weaknesses on this team.  LB, CB, LG/C, #2 RB

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#22 : November 14, 2011, 08:50:44 PM

K2 filled that role, and in a way still does, but his knees are shot and Olson has him running a bunch of short drag routes where everyone knows K2 is not really capable of generating YAC anymore.  I will not accuse Olson of having a Shoop-esque offensive design because WR's downfield were open in yesterdays game but Freeman pretty much did not see them or has become gunshy.

Dude notice how K2 has been getting crushed because Freeman has been throwing high to him. I am not a K2 fan but he has been taking a straight up beating this year. It's a wonder that he's not hurt.

Freeman has been hanging a few receivers out to dry by throwing high, anything but high. High will get you hurt...

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#23 : November 14, 2011, 08:52:45 PM

I think last years passing success was more a fact of teams challenging Freeman and the Bucs to throw. Now opposing defenses are daring the Bucs to run and instead covering the pass and effectively, and sometimes seemingly effortlessly, they are shutting down the WR's. Last year Williams surprised  a lot of people and was able to take advantage of it. Now he is has basically been removed from the Bucs offense. I think he may also be having a bit of a sophomore slump, but some of the effort he gives can only remind you of Clayton.  Many people thought, myself included he could be a #1 WR. I'm not so sure now. Is he really any better or produced anymore than Benn or Parker or Briscoe? The obvious answer to that is no. I would not go into this draft looking for a WR, but if a top notch WR drops to whatever position the Bucs are at, especially if he has the speed Williams and this offense sorely lack, you take him.

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#24 : November 14, 2011, 08:58:19 PM

I think last years passing success was more a fact of teams challenging Freeman and the Bucs to throw. Now opposing defenses are daring the Bucs to run and instead covering the pass and effectively, and sometimes seemingly effortlessly, they are shutting down the WR's. Last year Williams surprised  a lot of people and was able to take advantage of it. Now he is has basically been removed from the Bucs offense. I think he may also be having a bit of a sophomore slump, but some of the effort he gives can only remind you of Clayton.  Many people thought, myself included he could be a #1 WR. I'm not so sure now. Is he really any better or produced anymore than Benn or Parker or Briscoe? The obvious answer to that is no. I would not go into this draft looking for a WR, but if a top notch WR drops to whatever position the Bucs are at, especially if he has the speed Williams and this offense sorely lack, you take him.

Clayton could get open, that he could do. He just couldn't catch a cold after his first season.

Williams doesn't know how to get open and is not being coached how to evidently.

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#25 : November 14, 2011, 08:59:02 PM

Actually I wouldnt mind finding a #1 RB. I like Blount and want him around but Earnest Graham showed what a more versatile RB can do for an offense. That game against the saints was probably our only complete game all year. Blount reminds me of Brandon Jacobs, a big back that gets caught when he is picking his way and cutting back looking for wholes. Big guys just cant change direction and accelerate out of cuts like a 200 pound back could do. Blount cant "keep the offense on schedule" because of this. Sure he can come and pop 8+ yard runs frequently, but he can get tackled for a 2 or 3 yard lost just as frequently. Putting the offense in 3rd or 2nd and long.
 I heard some 1 say Lamichael James could be our Lasean McCoy but I doubt he will be that kind of player. James is probably more of a Reggie Bush. The only difference is he will be drafted in the 3rd round like Reggie should have.

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#26 : November 14, 2011, 09:02:38 PM

K2 filled that role, and in a way still does, but his knees are shot and Olson has him running a bunch of short drag routes where everyone knows K2 is not really capable of generating YAC anymore.  I will not accuse Olson of having a Shoop-esque offensive design because WR's downfield were open in yesterdays game but Freeman pretty much did not see them or has become gunshy.

^^^^^This is why I don't blame the WR's. They are getting open sometimes, but Josh is making terrible decisions. A big issue is sometimes they look like they're open, but the DB's are spying on Freeman's eyes. Since Josh stares down his WR's and he never pump fakes, the DB's have an advantage, because as soon as Josh starts his throwing motion, they jump on the route. Before he even releases the ball, the safeties have taken a few steps and now are in position to make the play.

The simple fact is, Josh Freeman has been God awful at throwing the ball downfield this year. The problem is not that guys are never open, the problem is #5 can't, or won't throw it. I keep hearing everyone say we need a real speed WR, who can stretch the field and gain seperation. My quetion is, what good would that do if your QB won't throw the deep ball? Of course, the design of the offense has a lot to do with it. Our WR's need to read the defense, and that has a lot to do with why #5 is staring down his WR's. He doesn't know where they are going until they do it. They are not on the same page and that falls on LOLson and his crappy offense.

They need to blow this offense up at the end of the year and bring in a new OC. If Van Pelt can't teach #5 the fundamentals, bring in a new QB coach, and if #5 doesn't improve next year, he isn't the guy. I would not be at all opposed to drafting a QB in the 1st round this year if a good looking QB is there when we pick. You can never have enough depth, and if you can pick up a guy who already has great fundamentals, that is one less thing you need to worry about when trying to develop them. In fact, if a QB doesn't have good fundamentals during his senior season in college, he probably never will. If #5 is going to be successful he needs to be more like Big Ben and scramble around and extend plays. He's never going to be a great pocket passer at the NFL level with his High School JV level fundamentals.

Mike Glennon
6\' 7\" 220 pounds.
6\' 6\" 210
6\' 5\" 200
6\' 4\" 190 6\' 3\" 180 6\' 2\" 170 6\' 1\" 160  6\' 0\" 150 How does he compare to your favorite QB?

Biggs3535

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#27 : November 14, 2011, 09:04:05 PM

I don't think the Bucs lack talent at WR.  It is misutilized, and some are not even used at all (Spurlock).

+1, although I will say that when your number 1 receiver was a 4th round draft pick a season ago, you may want to think about investing in a stopgap option. But that word is apparently not in Dom's dictionary.

I don't think WR was an area that needed to be addressed in the offseason.  Williams, Benn, and Briscoe looked like a pretty good WR trio to build on after last year.

Obviously they haven't played well this year, but I think it's hindsight to say the Bucs needed to add someone via FA.


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#28 : November 14, 2011, 09:35:12 PM

I don't think the Bucs lack talent at WR.  It is misutilized, and some are not even used at all (Spurlock).

+1, although I will say that when your number 1 receiver was a 4th round draft pick a season ago, you may want to think about investing in a stopgap option. But that word is apparently not in Dom's dictionary.

I don't think WR was an area that needed to be addressed in the offseason.  Williams, Benn, and Briscoe looked like a pretty good WR trio to build on after last year.

Obviously they haven't played well this year, but I think it's hindsight to say the Bucs needed to add someone via FA.

I don't disagree, but I think this should have been done in 2010. Starting out the 2010 season with a 4th rounder as your #1 WR is an incredibly stupid thing to do. Williams was awesome last season, but they got lucky in that. How many other GM's would have felt as confident and comfortable as ours having zero contingency to a 4th rounder as the #1 receiving option for your 2nd year QB? It's those types of decisions that have lead us to this point, IMO.


Biggs3535

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#29 : November 14, 2011, 09:45:01 PM

The 2010 offseason?  Dude, they had the great FA WR acquisition Michael Clayton on the team from the 2009 offseason.

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