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TBTrojan

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#75 : January 04, 2012, 02:05:00 PM

i know this will cause sparks...

but if fisher is put in the average category, what category would gruden be put in?

Let's see...
Super Bowl winner not loser.
3 losing seasons out of 11 (.273) compared to 6 of 17 (.353).
5 playoff years in 11 seasons (.455) compared to 6 of 17 (.353)
Won with 2 teams rather than just the one.
Winning playoff record compared to a losing one.

Seems Gruden has Fisher whipped except for the few extra regular season wins Fisher padded his record with on his lucky years bumping his win percentage up to beat Gruden by a whole .002, I think a Super Bowl massively exceeds that.
: January 04, 2012, 02:26:09 PM TBTrojan

Axxon

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#76 : January 04, 2012, 02:10:18 PM

does winning a SB make him better than an average coach?  if dyson would have gotten one more yard would fisher be considered a better than average coach?

If my mother had juevos would she be my father? No point in playing the what if games if we're talking about what did happen. TBTrojan did a nice job covering the what did happen.

GameTime

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#77 : January 04, 2012, 02:12:26 PM

gruden definitely has a better resume, im just trying to gauge the difference in the two.

\"Lets put the O back in Country\"

Axxon

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#78 : January 04, 2012, 02:19:24 PM

gruden definitely has a better resume, im just trying to gauge the difference in the two.

It's hard to say but Gruden had a hand in building two teams in the same super bowl and that's pretty impressive. He didn't have to touch our defense but he had a large hand in bringing in the right personnel on our offense and that was the difference maker for us. Our offense kicked butt that postseason along with our normal defensive excellence.

GameTime

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#79 : January 04, 2012, 02:28:50 PM

i just think that fisher must have been doing something right to be a 17 year coach and never crash.  personally i usually just want to be at least 8-8 with a shot at the playoffs, maybe thats why i dont mind fisher.  i dont think any coach can sustain greatness over the longterm.  fisher never attained greatness, but he was pretty darned close.  gruden lost it immediately. 

what scares me more about fisher is that he had multiple run ins with discipline issues and players. 

\"Lets put the O back in Country\"

Axxon

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#80 : January 04, 2012, 02:32:48 PM

i just think that fisher must have been doing something right to be a 17 year coach and never crash.  personally i usually just want to be at least 8-8 with a shot at the playoffs, maybe thats why i dont mind fisher.  i dont think any coach can sustain greatness over the longterm.  fisher never attained greatness, but he was pretty darned close.  gruden lost it immediately. 

what scares me more about fisher is that he had multiple run ins with discipline issues and players.

I think a patient owner had a lot to do with Fisher's longevity  but as I've made it clear over the past few days, I am against Fisher more because I don't like him personally and prefer other options than because he sucks and would be a bad hire per se.

TBTrojan

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#81 : January 04, 2012, 02:33:03 PM

gruden definitely has a better resume, im just trying to gauge the difference in the two.

IMO I would say Gruden is a good (not great) coach while Fisher is average.
To me words like great and elite are thrown around so much they lose all meaning.
Bill Walsh was great.
Bill Parcells was very good.
Gruden was good.
Fisher was average.
Norv Turner is below average (how does he stay employed as a head coach and get so many chances?)
Raheem Morris was a joke.

Looking at what is out there I'm not seeing anyone that strikes me as being a great or very good coach.
Billick is the nearest as a good coach and some of the coordinators look like they have potential to reach that level but overall I'm not that hyped about the talent pool to pick from.

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#82 : January 04, 2012, 02:35:04 PM

The whole "number of winning seasons" argument seems rather specious and arbitrary to me.  No, 8-8 is not a laudable goal, but I'd much rather have a hypothetical team go 8-8, 8-8, 12-4 than 3-13, 9-7, 4-12, but by that metric, they're the *same* thing.  Winning percentage seems more honest, but even that isn't perfect.  If it were, Martz would be getting a *whole* lot more support in this debate than he actually is (or should be).

Axxon

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#83 : January 04, 2012, 02:44:54 PM

The whole "number of winning seasons" argument seems rather specious and arbitrary to me.  No, 8-8 is not a laudable goal, but I'd much rather have a hypothetical team go 8-8, 8-8, 12-4 than 3-13, 9-7, 4-12, but by that metric, they're the *same* thing.  Winning percentage seems more honest, but even that isn't perfect.  If it were, Martz would be getting a *whole* lot more support in this debate than he actually is (or should be).

Well, Sherman and Billick beat Fisher in either metric so I'm good with either one.

3rd String Kicker

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#84 : January 04, 2012, 02:49:41 PM

The Phins are reportedly willing to overpay Fisher.
http://tampabay.sbnation.com/miami-dolphins/2012/1/4/2682363/miami-dolphins-coaching-news-jeff-fisher-rumors-nfl

The Miami Dolphins are prepared to make Jeff Fisher a lucrative offer to become their next coach--the most lucrative one he'll receive from any team, reports Armando Salguero of the Miami Herald, citing two sources. Stephen Ross, the team's owner, "has the deep pockets necessary to pay what he must to hire Fisher," Salguero says. In addition, Ross does not want the public to get the impression that he will settle for anything less than the best.


Axxon

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#85 : January 04, 2012, 02:52:27 PM

The Phins are reportedly willing to overpay Fisher.
http://tampabay.sbnation.com/miami-dolphins/2012/1/4/2682363/miami-dolphins-coaching-news-jeff-fisher-rumors-nfl

The Miami Dolphins are prepared to make Jeff Fisher a lucrative offer to become their next coach--the most lucrative one he'll receive from any team, reports Armando Salguero of the Miami Herald, citing two sources. Stephen Ross, the team's owner, "has the deep pockets necessary to pay what he must to hire Fisher," Salguero says. In addition, Ross does not want the public to get the impression that he will settle for anything less than the best.

I think Fisher would be a very good fit for them and it's nice to see they're serious about getting their man.

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#86 : January 04, 2012, 04:22:50 PM

i just think that fisher must have been doing something right to be a 17 year coach and never crash.  personally i usually just want to be at least 8-8 with a shot at the playoffs, maybe thats why i dont mind fisher.  i dont think any coach can sustain greatness over the longterm.  fisher never attained greatness, but he was pretty darned close.  gruden lost it immediately. 

what scares me more about fisher is that he had multiple run ins with discipline issues and players.
They found comfort in mediocrity.  That's why I'm so against him coming here, I couldn't stand the long term "meh" that he would bring.  Either be great or continue striving for greatness...never settle for average.

GameTime

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#87 : January 04, 2012, 04:28:47 PM

They found comfort in mediocrity.  That's why I'm so against him coming here, I couldn't stand the long term "meh" that he would bring.  Either be great or continue striving for greatness...never settle for average.

i dont buy that.  apologize for continuing to come back to gruden, but after winning the SB did he settle for average?  no.  he kept working - but it just isnt that easy in the NFL.  he was still a good coach, he just didnt get the top notch results anymore.

fisher isnt the best thing since sliced bread, but i think many overestimate making consistent playoff appearances and winning superbowls. 

\"Lets put the O back in Country\"
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