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Chief Joseph

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« #420 : March 28, 2012, 09:42:09 AM »


There is no legitimacy to your fantasy scenario. Out of all the possibilities presented, yours makes the least sense.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

CBWx2

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« #421 : March 28, 2012, 09:44:26 AM »


There is no legitimacy to your fantasy scenario. Out of all the possibilities presented, yours makes the least sense.

What fantasy scenario might that be? Please, illuminate me.


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« #422 : March 28, 2012, 10:02:06 AM »


  by using excessive force in a situation you helped to escalate and then using the subjective aspect of "stand your grown" is bullspit to me.  thats just the way i feel with the "facts" i know.

a moment of clarity amongst the din.


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« #423 : March 28, 2012, 10:16:15 AM »


 it really all comes down to something very simple:  "I live in unit #_"  Rail all you want about the many things that Zimmerman did wrong, but we all know one simple thing that Martin could have done right, but obviously chose not too.

Zimmerman was told he didn't need to follow Martin and that the SPD was en route. But he chose not to listen.

This seems to be a sticking point, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't listen to a friggin' operator if I lived in a community that had been a victim of a lot of criminal activity and I could follow a suspishous character to report their whereabouts.  Contrary to what is being portrayed around here and in the MSM, Zimmerman didn't break the law by continuing to follow Martin.

He went directly against the advice of law enforcement and escalated  a non-emergency situation. He is the provocateur, he not only stood his ground but he made a conscious decision to ignore law enforcement even when he knew they were on their way

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« #424 : March 28, 2012, 10:27:27 AM »

He went directly against the advice of law enforcement

I didn't peg you to be so subservient to quasi-authority like an operator.

And I'm not sure if the operator qualifies as "law enforcement", but it's nice spin.


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« #425 : March 28, 2012, 10:43:23 AM »


 it really all comes down to something very simple:  "I live in unit #_"  Rail all you want about the many things that Zimmerman did wrong, but we all know one simple thing that Martin could have done right, but obviously chose not too.

Zimmerman was told he didn't need to follow Martin and that the SPD was en route. But he chose not to listen.

This seems to be a sticking point, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't listen to a friggin' operator if I lived in a community that had been a victim of a lot of criminal activity and I could follow a suspishous character to report their whereabouts.  Contrary to what is being portrayed around here and in the MSM, Zimmerman didn't break the law by continuing to follow Martin.

He went directly against the advice of law enforcement and escalated  a non-emergency situation. He is the provocateur, he not only stood his ground but he made a conscious decision to ignore law enforcement even when he knew they were on their way

Wow, surprised that someone who usually provides thoughtful responses could come uo with that. I guess politics drives the day?  Just to point outthe obvious flaw though, you say Zimmerman  "escalated  a non-emergency situation. He is the provocateur, he not only stood his ground but he made a conscious decision to ignore law enforcement even when he knew they were on their way" but what if he only followed the kid and then whenhe found him the "provocateur" of the fight -- which is the only significant event -- was Martin?  Not only is that a possibility it is the only known factual scenario right now.  Just sayin . .

VinBucFan

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« #426 : March 28, 2012, 10:44:57 AM »

on the "same for a 90ld woman" the answer is no.  The question is whether a neighborhood watchman in that neighborhood on that night under those circumstance would have a reasonable belief.  The refusing treatment is an interesting issue because you are saying his injuries were not severe enough (I think that is what you mean).  His response would be "yes, because I fired my pistol . .  that's the point"

i think by signing up to be a neighborhood watchman, and literally following possible threats through dark areas, one is voluntarily putting himself into harms way.  by using excessive force in a situation you helped to escalate and then using the subjective aspect of "stand your grown" is bullspit to me.  thats just the way i feel with the "facts" i know.

certainly your right to feel that way but it souinds like your issue is with the law, thats a different subject

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« #427 : March 28, 2012, 10:49:47 AM »

certainly your right to feel that way but it souinds like your issue is with the law, thats a different subject

my main issue is with the fact that no one knows what happened.  no one has a good feel for what/when/where/whys of the night.  everyone is guessing right now.  but yeah, i do probably have an issue with a law that is subjective.

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« #428 : March 28, 2012, 10:51:27 AM »

He went directly against the advice of law enforcement

I didn't peg you to be so subservient to quasi-authority like an operator.

And I'm not sure if the operator qualifies as "law enforcement", but it's nice spin.

i dont think id qualify an operator/dispatcher as law enforcement, but if i feel the need to call 911, i dont think i should blatantly ignore what they are telling me to do.

\"Lets put the O back in Country\"

ufojoe

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« #429 : March 28, 2012, 10:58:00 AM »


Anyone disagree that with these very simple words said Martin is alive today:

"I live in unit #_____"

If Zimmerman never asked Martin where he lived or where he was going, then how was this going to save Martin's life?

No wonder there are pages and pages of arguments even when the essential facts are not even known.

I am glad to know that is a joke even if a bad one. Obviously, the kid just has to say he is authorized to be on the property.  he does not have to wait for a question. LOL.

Please tell me you are kidding

Nope. He's not. And he's one of Zimmerman's biggest advocates in this thread. Just doesn't realize it.

And Vince, how do you know what Zimmerman said to Martin or what Martin said to Zimmerman regarding where he lived?


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« #430 : March 28, 2012, 10:58:50 AM »


Anyone disagree that with these very simple words said Martin is alive today:

"I live in unit #_____"

If Zimmerman never asked Martin where he lived or where he was going, then how was this going to save Martin's life?

No wonder there are pages and pages of arguments even when the essential facts are not even known.

I am glad to know that is a joke even if a bad one. Obviously, the kid just has to say he is authorized to be on the property.  he does not have to wait for a question. LOL.

Not a joke. Completely serious. You said that would have saved his life with absolutely no proof that there was an opportunity or circumstance for Martin to have said it. Perhaps Martin would have offered this response to a police officer, or security guard. But how likely is it that anyone would offer this response to an unidentified stranger that was following them when they were walking home alone at night?

You talk a big game, vince, but you are just as much of an advocate as anyone else. The fact that you can't even bring yourself to acknowledge the legitimacy of my position on this single issue speaks volumes.

CBW, you can call me an advocate all you want but just as with this discussion the facts don't bear it our, particuarly as a comparison to you.  You have been on a  soapbox for 30 pages spreading political propaganda (dailykos, really?)  My position is ONLY "relax and don't jump to conclusions," especially not one sided conclusions.

 Here's the reason and my motivation.  While I recognize this is just a football message board, one life was tragically lost and another hangs in the balance.  That life hanging in the balance may eventually have a day in court and is entitled, just as you would be, to be judged by a dispassionate jury of his peers.  Whether it is intentional or just misguided, you and people like you futher propoganda that intereferes with the one guy's ability to get a dispassionate jury of his peers.  Now this is just a messsge board, but you have portrayed as fact so much BS that its hard to see how anyone could sift through it.  You are not alone, far from it.  You are not much different than the Al Sharpton's of the world, albeit on a much smaller scale, and that is just wrong and I would say even immoral if the reason you are doing it is to further a political agenda (I will let others judge your motivation and say that for my own part i just think you are reckless, meaning you ahve not thought thru the implications). 

I don't have a dog in the fight because my fight is for fairness and calm, that's all. I don'thave apoliticalagenda and am not a political person.  By comparison, you CLEARLY have a dog in the fight, any reasonable person could see that from your comments and fromthe sources you rely on. So, please don't tell me about advocacy.  You should be embarassed to even say such stuff given the 30 pages on here of rank, reckless specualation and hypothesizing.  I get that its just a message board, but it bears consideration by you and others like you because of its potential impact on another human life. There are many, many examples of people rushing to judgment and being wrong.  No one is going to think you are any less of a standard bearer for your political causes if you show a little restraint.

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« #431 : March 28, 2012, 10:59:59 AM »


 it really all comes down to something very simple:  "I live in unit #_"  Rail all you want about the many things that Zimmerman did wrong, but we all know one simple thing that Martin could have done right, but obviously chose not too.

Zimmerman was told he didn't need to follow Martin and that the SPD was en route. But he chose not to listen.

This seems to be a sticking point, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't listen to a friggin' operator if I lived in a community that had been a victim of a lot of criminal activity and I could follow a suspishous character to report their whereabouts.  Contrary to what is being portrayed around here and in the MSM, Zimmerman didn't break the law by continuing to follow Martin.

He went directly against the advice of law enforcement and escalated  a non-emergency situation. He is the provocateur, he not only stood his ground but he made a conscious decision to ignore law enforcement even when he knew they were on their way

Wow, surprised that someone who usually provides thoughtful responses could come uo with that. I guess politics drives the day?  Just to point outthe obvious flaw though, you say Zimmerman  "escalated  a non-emergency situation. He is the provocateur, he not only stood his ground but he made a conscious decision to ignore law enforcement even when he knew they were on their way" but what if he only followed the kid and then whenhe found him the "provocateur" of the fight -- which is the only significant event -- was Martin?  Not only is that a possibility it is the only known factual scenario right now.  Just sayin . .

"Stalking is a term commonly used to refer to unwanted and obsessive attention by an individual or group to another person. Stalking behaviors are related to harassment and intimidation and may include following the victim in person and/or monitoring them. The word stalking is used, with some differing meanings, in psychology and psychiatry and also in some legal jurisdictions as a term for a criminal offense.

According to a 2002 report by the National Center for Victims of Crime, 'Virtually any unwanted contact between two people that directly or indirectly communicates a threat or places the victim in fear can be considered stalking.'"



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« #432 : March 28, 2012, 11:01:14 AM »


Vince, educate yourself on Stand Your Ground. You keep referring to it when it is not applicable to this case.

http://wtvr.com/2012/03/24/zimmermans-lawyer-stand-your-ground-doesnt-apply-in-trayvon-martin-case/

SANFORD, Florida (CNN) – A lawyer for the man at the center of the Trayvon Martin death investigation said Florida’s “stand your ground” law doesn’t apply to the shooting that killed the unarmed teen.

“In my legal opinion, that’s not really applicable to this case. The statute on ‘stand your ground’ is primarily when you’re in your house,” said Craig Sonner, attorney for George Zimmerman.

“This is self-defense, and that’s been around for forever — that you have a right to defend yourself. So the next issue (that) is going to come up is, was he justified in using the amount of force he did?”

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« #433 : March 28, 2012, 11:06:27 AM »


Anyone disagree that with these very simple words said Martin is alive today:

"I live in unit #_____"

If Zimmerman never asked Martin where he lived or where he was going, then how was this going to save Martin's life?

No wonder there are pages and pages of arguments even when the essential facts are not even known.

I am glad to know that is a joke even if a bad one. Obviously, the kid just has to say he is authorized to be on the property.  he does not have to wait for a question. LOL.

Please tell me you are kidding

Nope. He's not. And he's one of Zimmerman's biggest advocates in this thread. Just doesn't realize it.

And Vince, how do you know what Zimmerman said to Martin or what Martin said to Zimmerman regarding where he lived?

Great, you know all is lost when a guy who belieivs there are aliens living on the moon calls me  "one of the biggest adviocates for Zimmerman"  That's rich.  Joe, not only are you apparently crazy, you cannot read.  Just because I differ with you on the issues does not make me an advocate for Zimmerman. I for neither an making a completel different point.  Crazy me, this thing called the Constitution. That's one of the things that you and CBW have in common.  You like to put people in "for" and "against" camps.  Sorry, my position is not in favor or against either, as I just pointed out in my last comment. 

On you actual question, no one knows what was said between the two.  My comment was an example, just like all he had to do was stop following him  . . . oh wait, he says he did that?  Hmm, so we take an actual piece of evidence and ignore it and then say my point is invalid because .. .  wait . . there's no evidence??  Joe, how many aliens live on the moon?

ufojoe

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« #434 : March 28, 2012, 11:09:42 AM »


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/opinion/floridas-disastrous-self-defense-law.html

About the author...

John F. Timoney is a former Miami police chief, Philadelphia police commissioner and deputy police commissioner in New York. He is now senior police adviser to the Bahrain Minister of the Interior.
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