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tatmanfish

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#30 : March 31, 2012, 04:00:26 PM

SB just needs to attention. He wants Richardson so hes trying to come up with a clever way of discrediting drafting Claiborne. Everyone knows all the value arguments of HB/CB, the fact that Barber has little left, Talib may go to jail, the roles the two positions play in todays NFL, etc. As its already been pointed out, the defenses presented were more of the classic bend but dont break and get turnovers. Nevermind the facts like these were elite offenses and teams were often down to them and throwing to try to keep up. That wouldnt inflate the passing defense numbers at all!?!?!?! Or facts like passing yards given up doesnt tell you how good a pass defense was or wasnt.

Its a biased attempt with an agenda.



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NotDeadYet

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#31 : March 31, 2012, 04:18:56 PM

     Top tier CB's usually, due to defensive schemes, have very little impact on run defense. If ya got a bad run D, opponents are just gonna run the ball, as they don't need to pass. That effectively takes the CB out of the game.
MLB is the position that has the biggest impact on D, and scheme figures into  how much of an impact. A fast, smart MLB can play every down and be a major factor in both run D and pass D. In the old Bucs' cover 2, Derrick Brooks was probably the best LB pass defender I've ever seen. He effectively was like having both a nickel back AND a LB on the field at the same time!

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#32 : March 31, 2012, 04:20:40 PM

    Aww, I've kinda grown accustomed to ol' Lurch's ugly mug; keep the sig, S&B!

Tampa-Two

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#33 : March 31, 2012, 04:24:04 PM

Is that you in the avatar santa claus?


John Galt?

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#34 : March 31, 2012, 04:39:37 PM

History says good later round very good RBs are plentiful, later round very good CBs are not.

So which of these CB/RB pairs would you rather have:

               1st Rnd RB, 2nd Rnd CB                                 1st rnd CB, later rnd RB

'10             CJ Spiller/Chris Cook                                      Joe Haden/Ben Tate
'09             Donald Brown/Sherrod Martin                          Vontae Davis/LeSean McCoy or Shonn Greene
'08             Jonathon Stewart/Pat Lee                               DRC/Ray Rice or Matt Forte or Jamaal Charles
'07             AP/Chris Hoouston                                        Darrell Revis/Michael Bush or Ahmad Bradshaw
'06             Reggie Bush/Jimmy Williams                         Jonathon Joseph/Maurice Drew-Jones

I'd say in 4 out of 5 I'd take 1st rnd CB


buchead

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#35 : March 31, 2012, 05:03:04 PM

the stats show that run defense is more important to success than pass defense.  just the opposite of what many have been saying lately.
Not you skull. Its painfully obvious that those teams you named get thrown on allot because A.) They all have high powered pasting offenses wich forces teams to throw more t keep up or B.) They have big leads because of those high powered offenses and teams have to all but abandon the run. How often did aaron Rodgers blow the doors of some second rate team and let the defense sit back in prevent (aka cruise control) and allow teams to complete underneath routes.



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#36 : March 31, 2012, 05:17:26 PM

     Top tier CB's usually, due to defensive schemes, have very little impact on run defense. If ya got a bad run D, opponents are just gonna run the ball, as they don't need to pass. That effectively takes the CB out of the game.
MLB is the position that has the biggest impact on D, and scheme figures into  how much of an impact. A fast, smart MLB can play every down and be a major factor in both run D and pass D. In the old Bucs' cover 2, Derrick Brooks was probably the best LB pass defender I've ever seen. He effectively was like having both a nickel back AND a LB on the field at the same time!

Great point about MLB but, Ronde Barber would like to speak with you about CBs effectiveness against the run.

Dolorous Jason

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#37 : March 31, 2012, 06:35:26 PM

     Top tier CB's usually, due to defensive schemes, have very little impact on run defense. If ya got a bad run D, opponents are just gonna run the ball, as they don't need to pass. That effectively takes the CB out of the game.
MLB is the position that has the biggest impact on D, and scheme figures into  how much of an impact. A fast, smart MLB can play every down and be a major factor in both run D and pass D. In the old Bucs' cover 2, Derrick Brooks was probably the best LB pass defender I've ever seen. He effectively was like having both a nickel back AND a LB on the field at the same time!

Great point about MLB but, Ronde Barber would like to speak with you about CBs effectiveness against the run.

So would Eric Wright. 72 tackles last year from the corner spot...

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           



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#38 : March 31, 2012, 08:12:03 PM

     Top tier CB's usually, due to defensive schemes, have very little impact on run defense. If ya got a bad run D, opponents are just gonna run the ball, as they don't need to pass. That effectively takes the CB out of the game.
MLB is the position that has the biggest impact on D, and scheme figures into  how much of an impact. A fast, smart MLB can play every down and be a major factor in both run D and pass D. In the old Bucs' cover 2, Derrick Brooks was probably the best LB pass defender I've ever seen. He effectively was like having both a nickel back AND a LB on the field at the same time!

Great point about MLB but, Ronde Barber would like to speak with you about CBs effectiveness against the run.

So would Eric Wright. 72 tackles last year from the corner spot...

Perfect example.

NotDeadYet

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#39 : March 31, 2012, 08:21:42 PM

 If CB's are our best weapon in stopping the run, our D is in for a really long season...

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#40 : March 31, 2012, 08:34:50 PM

History says good later round very good RBs are plentiful, later round very good CBs are not.

So which of these CB/RB pairs would you rather have:

               1st Rnd RB, 2nd Rnd CB                                 1st rnd CB, later rnd RB

'10             CJ Spiller/Chris Cook                                      Joe Haden/Ben Tate
'09             Donald Brown/Sherrod Martin                          Vontae Davis/LeSean McCoy or Shonn Greene
'08             Jonathon Stewart/Pat Lee                               DRC/Ray Rice or Matt Forte or Jamaal Charles
'07             AP/Chris Hoouston                                        Darrell Revis/Michael Bush or Ahmad Bradshaw
'06             Reggie Bush/Jimmy Williams                         Jonathon Joseph/Maurice Drew-Jones

I'd say in 4 out of 5 I'd take 1st rnd CB

There's another way of looking at this though. Here are ALL CBs, both good and bad, taken in the first round during the last 5 seasons:

Patrick Peterson
Prince Amukamara
Jimmy Smith
Joe Haden
Kareem Jackson
Devin McCourty
Kyle Wilson
Patrick Robinson
Malcolm Jenkins
Vontae Davis
Leodis McKelvin
DRC
Aqib Talib
Mike Jenkins
Antoine Cason
Darelle Revis
Leon Hall
Aaron Ross

Out of those guys, you've got a few great players, but quite a lot of mediocre to average guys too. Meanwhile, you've also got Marshawn Lynch, Darren McFadden(why did you list Stewart over him?), Chris Johnson(oh yeah, he's okay too), Beanie Wells, and Ryan Mathews as some good RBs along the way too. Lump those guys into the mix and the two positions are actually about even. Taking it even further, you can go back through the past 10 drafts at CBs taken in the top 10, and you'll notice that the majority of them really weren't any better than average.

Understand that I'm not a Richardson homer, in fact I'd rather we took Claiborne(although trading down/taking one of the tackles is my personal hope). But what I'm arguing is that 1st round CBs really aren't any safer than RBs. Really, the only thing that makes them more valuable is that when you do hit the jackpot, he'll be around for a LONG while. RBs are a bad value not because you can get good ones later on, but because their "greatness" lifespan generally only goes about 5 years before they begin to wear down, and also because they generally get shut down in the playoffs. But as far as actual performance, both positions are a risk and taking Kalil or Reiff would be a MUCH safer option as tackles have a much better track record than any other position drafted in the top 10.


XFactor

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#41 : March 31, 2012, 09:10:30 PM

History says good later round very good RBs are plentiful, later round very good CBs are not.

So which of these CB/RB pairs would you rather have:

               1st Rnd RB, 2nd Rnd CB                                 1st rnd CB, later rnd RB

'10             CJ Spiller/Chris Cook                                      Joe Haden/Ben Tate
'09             Donald Brown/Sherrod Martin                          Vontae Davis/LeSean McCoy or Shonn Greene
'08             Jonathon Stewart/Pat Lee                               DRC/Ray Rice or Matt Forte or Jamaal Charles
'07             AP/Chris Hoouston                                        Darrell Revis/Michael Bush or Ahmad Bradshaw
'06             Reggie Bush/Jimmy Williams                         Jonathon Joseph/Maurice Drew-Jones

I'd say in 4 out of 5 I'd take 1st rnd CB

There's another way of looking at this though. Here are ALL CBs, both good and bad, taken in the first round during the last 5 seasons:

Patrick Peterson
Prince Amukamara
Jimmy Smith
Joe Haden
Kareem Jackson
Devin McCourty
Kyle Wilson
Patrick Robinson
Malcolm Jenkins
Vontae Davis
Leodis McKelvin
DRC
Aqib Talib
Mike Jenkins
Antoine Cason
Darelle Revis
Leon Hall
Aaron Ross

Out of those guys, you've got a few great players, but quite a lot of mediocre to average guys too. Meanwhile, you've also got Marshawn Lynch, Darren McFadden(why did you list Stewart over him?), Chris Johnson(oh yeah, he's okay too), Beanie Wells, and Ryan Mathews as some good RBs along the way too. Lump those guys into the mix and the two positions are actually about even. Taking it even further, you can go back through the past 10 drafts at CBs taken in the top 10, and you'll notice that the majority of them really weren't any better than average.

Understand that I'm not a Richardson homer, in fact I'd rather we took Claiborne(although trading down/taking one of the tackles is my personal hope). But what I'm arguing is that 1st round CBs really aren't any safer than RBs. Really, the only thing that makes them more valuable is that when you do hit the jackpot, he'll be around for a LONG while. RBs are a bad value not because you can get good ones later on, but because their "greatness" lifespan generally only goes about 5 years before they begin to wear down, and also because they generally get shut down in the playoffs. But as far as actual performance, both positions are a risk and taking Kalil or Reiff would be a MUCH safer option as tackles have a much better track record than any other position drafted in the top 10.

Only difference is McFadden is the only top 5 RB In your list, right? Big difference if we were talking about Richardson at 20 rather then 5. I get your point though, anyone can bust.


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#42 : March 31, 2012, 11:19:18 PM

the argument against taking a CB at 5

Brian Kelly - 2nd rd
Donnie Abraham - 2nd rd
Ronde Barber - 3rd rd

-------------------------------------------------------
   

 I thought Lovie said he wanted quickness & speed, even at the QB position?



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#43 : March 31, 2012, 11:36:13 PM

the argument against taking a CB at 5

Brian Kelly - 2nd rd
Donnie Abraham - 2nd rd
Ronde Barber - 3rd rd


Brian & Donnie were good man cover guys, but Tampa 2 didn't need 1st round corners did they S?

nubcake

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#44 : March 31, 2012, 11:36:30 PM

Rabble
Only difference is McFadden is the only top 5 RB In your list, right? Big difference if we were talking about Richardson at 20 rather then 5. I get your point though, anyone can bust.

Peterson was 7, and Richardson is likely somewhere around the 4-8 range so I think it's fair to lump him in.

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