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BucBalla85

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#30 : April 02, 2012, 01:34:25 PM

Freeman will do fine now that he has VJ to throw to and a better OL. But I do agree, it's make it or break it this season for JF. Too much money was spent for failure.

Agree. He has no excuses to at least bring back 2010 play or better.

Fans have a short term memory. Bring back 2010? I seriously hope not. Don't forget 2010 was no different than the first six games in 2011. We sucked nearly all three quarters and have a Tebow miracle late in the fourth quarter. Fans were blinded by the 25 TD 6 INT numbers. Few fans including myself knew that kind of playing could not continue. Now can you blame Raheem for his lack of development and preparation for Freeman, yes. Can you blame Olsen for his bone-headed/predictable play calling, yes. At the same time Freeman has played poorly. Don't get me wrong because I hope he stays and develop for the long haul. However, blaming the WR corps and the OL is a little unfair. Last season Freeman had plenty of time to throw, he just held onto the ball to long. Also, prior to VJ, he had a talented WR corps. How can they be expected to do anything if the play calls were predictable (i.e. Blount not on the field pass) and Freeman only throwing five yards at a time. I think the article was weak but for us to win Freeman has to improve.

I meant more along the lines of taking care of the football and winning games like he did in 2010.

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#31 : April 02, 2012, 02:03:36 PM

Like I said before, 2010 is not a good example. The first six games of 2011 were similar to the 2010 season. Many wins were sloppy until the last five minutes of the quarter. That is what I meant when I said fans have a short memory. The Vikings game looked just like the 2010 Bucs.

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#32 : April 02, 2012, 03:18:44 PM

Freeman will do fine now that he has VJ to throw to and a better OL. But I do agree, it's make it or break it this season for JF. Too much money was spent for failure.

Agree. He has no excuses to at least bring back 2010 play or better.

Fans have a short term memory. Bring back 2010? I seriously hope not. Don't forget 2010 was no different than the first six games in 2011. We sucked nearly all three quarters and have a Tebow miracle late in the fourth quarter. Fans were blinded by the 25 TD 6 INT numbers. Few fans including myself knew that kind of playing could not continue. Now can you blame Raheem for his lack of development and preparation for Freeman, yes. Can you blame Olsen for his bone-headed/predictable play calling, yes. At the same time Freeman has played poorly. Don't get me wrong because I hope he stays and develop for the long haul. However, blaming the WR corps and the OL is a little unfair. Last season Freeman had plenty of time to throw, he just held onto the ball to long. Also, prior to VJ, he had a talented WR corps. How can they be expected to do anything if the play calls were predictable (i.e. Blount not on the field pass) and Freeman only throwing five yards at a time. I think the article was weak but for us to win Freeman has to improve.

In the same vein, many fans were blinded by his 16;22 td to interception ratio. They don't count that 9 of his ints were a result of catchable balls being dropped. They don't count the 4 or 5 tds that were dropped. And we'll never know how many ints were the result of wrong routes. 2010 proved Freeman has talent to get it done in the NFL. 2011 showed that an ill prepared team can be disastrous for a young QB.

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#33 : April 02, 2012, 03:29:03 PM

Like I said before, 2010 is not a good example. The first six games of 2011 were similar to the 2010 season. Many wins were sloppy until the last five minutes of the quarter. That is what I meant when I said fans have a short memory. The Vikings game looked just like the 2010 Bucs.

Im not talking about the sloppyness. I expected that in a young team like the 2010 team. They still got it done when it mattered. Thats what Im expecting to see more of this year. Just like almost every bucs team thats been around. Most wins this franchise has had is sloppy ugly wins. Winning is the important thing. Not how its done. Would I like to see good clean hard fought wins. Of Course. I care more about the W, in the end. Hence my expectation for more 2010 results than 2011.

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#34 : April 02, 2012, 03:40:21 PM

Like I said before, 2010 is not a good example. The first six games of 2011 were similar to the 2010 season. Many wins were sloppy until the last five minutes of the quarter. That is what I meant when I said fans have a short memory. The Vikings game looked just like the 2010 Bucs.

Im not talking about the sloppyness. I expected that in a young team like the 2010 team. They still got it done when it mattered. Thats what Im expecting to see more of this year. Just like almost every bucs team thats been around. Most wins this franchise has had is sloppy ugly wins. Winning is the important thing. Not how its done. Would I like to see good clean hard fought wins. Of Course. I care more about the W, in the end. Hence my expectation for more 2010 results than 2011.

I see what you are saying but I think you are not understanding mine. The sloppy three and outs helped contribute to the defense's downfall. It is amazing their weren't more injuries considering the amount of time they were on the field.

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#35 : April 02, 2012, 03:42:54 PM

Like I said before, 2010 is not a good example. The first six games of 2011 were similar to the 2010 season. Many wins were sloppy until the last five minutes of the quarter. That is what I meant when I said fans have a short memory. The Vikings game looked just like the 2010 Bucs.

Im not talking about the sloppyness. I expected that in a young team like the 2010 team. They still got it done when it mattered. Thats what Im expecting to see more of this year. Just like almost every bucs team thats been around. Most wins this franchise has had is sloppy ugly wins. Winning is the important thing. Not how its done. Would I like to see good clean hard fought wins. Of Course. I care more about the W, in the end. Hence my expectation for more 2010 results than 2011.

I see what you are saying but I think you are not understanding mine. The sloppy three and outs helped contribute to the defense's downfall. It is amazing their weren't more injuries considering the amount of time they were on the field.

I understand. You dont want sloppy starts. I agree. I think with a different staff we may not see that anymore. If Freeman can start games a lot better than the team will be in a better position to win games and wont have to play catch up. One good thing about that however is we know they can play catch up. They have had tons of experience at it and have succeeded at it. Just need to not make it a reoccuring thing.
: April 02, 2012, 03:44:48 PM BucBalla85

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#36 : April 02, 2012, 03:48:06 PM

Freeman will do fine now that he has VJ to throw to and a better OL. But I do agree, it's make it or break it this season for JF. Too much money was spent for failure.

Agree. He has no excuses to at least bring back 2010 play or better.

Fans have a short term memory. Bring back 2010? I seriously hope not. Don't forget 2010 was no different than the first six games in 2011. We sucked nearly all three quarters and have a Tebow miracle late in the fourth quarter. Fans were blinded by the 25 TD 6 INT numbers. Few fans including myself knew that kind of playing could not continue. Now can you blame Raheem for his lack of development and preparation for Freeman, yes. Can you blame Olsen for his bone-headed/predictable play calling, yes. At the same time Freeman has played poorly. Don't get me wrong because I hope he stays and develop for the long haul. However, blaming the WR corps and the OL is a little unfair. Last season Freeman had plenty of time to throw, he just held onto the ball to long. Also, prior to VJ, he had a talented WR corps. How can they be expected to do anything if the play calls were predictable (i.e. Blount not on the field pass) and Freeman only throwing five yards at a time. I think the article was weak but for us to win Freeman has to improve.

In the same vein, many fans were blinded by his 16;22 td to interception ratio. They don't count that 9 of his ints were a result of catchable balls being dropped. They don't count the 4 or 5 tds that were dropped. And we'll never know how many ints were the result of wrong routes. 2010 proved Freeman has talent to get it done in the NFL. 2011 showed that an ill prepared team can be disastrous for a young QB.

There is plenty of blame to go around but in your statement you are not faulting Freeman for his. Yes intercepts were from dropped balls etc. At the same time how many times Williams and other receivers got their bells rung because he threw them a pass that would immediately get hit. For example:


Just like what TBXXXVII said (again), look at how he didn't scan the field. Like I said earlier, I want Josh to develop and be with us in the long haul. At the same time, he needs to improve his mechanics. I noticed to more fans talk about that (which many have said), others will blame the OL or WR corps.
: April 02, 2012, 03:52:13 PM BucfanNC12

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#37 : April 02, 2012, 03:56:47 PM

Yes hes made tons of mistakes. Hes going to get the chance to redeem himself with a new coaching staff. Hopefully all these mistakes you guys are picking up, our new coaching staff is also picking up. Hopefully he will work extra hard to correct them. Im not at all ready to quit on the guy and say we need to move on right now. He will get his chance.

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#38 : April 02, 2012, 04:02:35 PM

Hater thread!!!!!

The O-line sucked last year, plain and simple. Anyone with an understanding of football and a pair of eyes could see it. The WRs werent very good last year either. Dismissing either of them if flat out asinine. The units were so good last year, than the Bucs went out and sign the top FA for each group. Freeman struggled and is responsible for mistakes as well, but last year was a collective failure. The coaching all the way down to each position played less than stellar.

talented WR corps? are you freaking kidding me. A WR corps that had almost all 2nd year players with only 1 that had a good rookie year......all pro receiving corps there stocked full of talent. The O-line played well? youre high as **CENSORED**. The LG spot was a carousel of suck along with RT. The only C had any consistency is when Faine went down. Add in poor play calling, poor coaching, no run game, bad mechanics by Freeman, and a team trailing by the end of the half every game, and its a recipe for disaster. Placing any significant amount of blame on any one player/coach is just flat retarded. If you dont think this team is better than what they produced last year with poor coaching and no offseason while being the youngest team in the NFL.......well youre a damned moron.



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BucBalla85

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#39 : April 02, 2012, 04:14:41 PM

Well I mean not liking Freeman isnt going to replace him. Hes going to have his chance to redeem himself no matter who likes him or doesnt like him. If he stinks up 2012 then he will be replaced. If not he will continue to be our QB. Simple as that.

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#40 : April 02, 2012, 04:19:50 PM

Freeman will do fine now that he has VJ to throw to and a better OL. But I do agree, it's make it or break it this season for JF. Too much money was spent for failure.

Agree. He has no excuses to at least bring back 2010 play or better.

Fans have a short term memory. Bring back 2010? I seriously hope not. Don't forget 2010 was no different than the first six games in 2011. We sucked nearly all three quarters and have a Tebow miracle late in the fourth quarter. Fans were blinded by the 25 TD 6 INT numbers. Few fans including myself knew that kind of playing could not continue. Now can you blame Raheem for his lack of development and preparation for Freeman, yes. Can you blame Olsen for his bone-headed/predictable play calling, yes. At the same time Freeman has played poorly. Don't get me wrong because I hope he stays and develop for the long haul. However, blaming the WR corps and the OL is a little unfair. Last season Freeman had plenty of time to throw, he just held onto the ball to long. Also, prior to VJ, he had a talented WR corps. How can they be expected to do anything if the play calls were predictable (i.e. Blount not on the field pass) and Freeman only throwing five yards at a time. I think the article was weak but for us to win Freeman has to improve.

In the same vein, many fans were blinded by his 16;22 td to interception ratio. They don't count that 9 of his ints were a result of catchable balls being dropped. They don't count the 4 or 5 tds that were dropped. And we'll never know how many ints were the result of wrong routes. 2010 proved Freeman has talent to get it done in the NFL. 2011 showed that an ill prepared team can be disastrous for a young QB.

There is plenty of blame to go around but in your statement you are not faulting Freeman for his. Yes intercepts were from dropped balls etc. At the same time how many times Williams and other receivers got their bells rung because he threw them a pass that would immediately get hit. For example:


Just like what TBXXXVII said (again), look at how he didn't scan the field. Like I said earlier, I want Josh to develop and be with us in the long haul. At the same time, he needs to improve his mechanics. I noticed to more fans talk about that (which many have said), others will blame the OL or WR corps.

Point #1: You don't scan the field on a slant route. Point #2: Williams has three steps before the safety gets there.  Not the QB's fault he got jacked. Point 3#: If we had a vertical route up the weak side seam, the safety would not have been able to sit there like he was in a tackling drill and it would have been a real nice play. That would be reasonable against a cover to shell.

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#41 : April 02, 2012, 04:25:22 PM

Yes hes made tons of mistakes. Hes going to get the chance to redeem himself with a new coaching staff. Hopefully all these mistakes you guys are picking up, our new coaching staff is also picking up. Hopefully he will work extra hard to correct them. Im not at all ready to quit on the guy and say we need to move on right now. He will get his chance.

I feel the same way. I think most are problems that can be easily fixed with good coaching. I too hope everything works out well.

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#42 : April 02, 2012, 04:47:54 PM

Hater thread!!!!!

The O-line sucked last year, plain and simple. Anyone with an understanding of football and a pair of eyes could see it. The WRs werent very good last year either. Dismissing either of them if flat out asinine. The units were so good last year, than the Bucs went out and sign the top FA for each group. Freeman struggled and is responsible for mistakes as well, but last year was a collective failure. The coaching all the way down to each position played less than stellar.

talented WR corps? are you freaking kidding me. A WR corps that had almost all 2nd year players with only 1 that had a good rookie year......all pro receiving corps there stocked full of talent. The O-line played well? youre high as **CENSORED**. The LG spot was a carousel of suck along with RT. The only C had any consistency is when Faine went down. Add in poor play calling, poor coaching, no run game, bad mechanics by Freeman, and a team trailing by the end of the half every game, and its a recipe for disaster. Placing any significant amount of blame on any one player/coach is just flat retarded. If you dont think this team is better than what they produced last year with poor coaching and no offseason while being the youngest team in the NFL.......well youre a damned moron.

You clearly have not been following this thread. This thread is not about the OL, WR corps, or the defense. It is about Freeman. I am talking about Freeman because this thread is about Freeman. Just look at the title of the thread. I'll agree with you on one point, this team was a failure from coaching on down. Yes I said a talented WR corps and no I am not kidding. Last season Williams got 771 yards. I consider that pretty good considering the overall play of the offense. Just like Blount, considering his few carries and Olsen abandoning the run game early, his 781 yards is pretty good to me. Now I watched all the games last year except for Dallas. In each of those games I noticed Freeman had time in the pocket. Like most pockets they collapsed if the QB has the ball too long. The OL was far from great but not as bad as people make them out to be. Also look at the vids Java posted about Blount in the Vikings game (I think). The offense was so predictable they (and other teams) stacked the line because they new it was a run. I think the horrible coaching has masked the talent on the team. I beat if Joseph didn't go to the pro-bowl, most fans would not have recognized his play. As for the WR corps I am glad they got V Jackson although I am not sold on him yet. He had three good season out of seven. I am glad they young now have some veteran leadership in the corps because he seems like a high character guy. I believe he'll do well here. Also, I think picking him up has energized the fan base. Something the organization needed. Back to the subject. I have been focusing on Freeman because this is what the thread is about. 

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#43 : April 02, 2012, 05:12:27 PM

Hater thread!!!!!

The O-line sucked last year, plain and simple. Anyone with an understanding of football and a pair of eyes could see it. The WRs werent very good last year either. Dismissing either of them if flat out asinine. The units were so good last year, than the Bucs went out and sign the top FA for each group. Freeman struggled and is responsible for mistakes as well, but last year was a collective failure. The coaching all the way down to each position played less than stellar.

talented WR corps? are you freaking kidding me. A WR corps that had almost all 2nd year players with only 1 that had a good rookie year......all pro receiving corps there stocked full of talent. The O-line played well? youre high as **CENSORED**. The LG spot was a carousel of suck along with RT. The only C had any consistency is when Faine went down. Add in poor play calling, poor coaching, no run game, bad mechanics by Freeman, and a team trailing by the end of the half every game, and its a recipe for disaster. Placing any significant amount of blame on any one player/coach is just flat retarded. If you dont think this team is better than what they produced last year with poor coaching and no offseason while being the youngest team in the NFL.......well youre a damned moron.

You clearly have not been following this thread. This thread is not about the OL, WR corps, or the defense. It is about Freeman. I am talking about Freeman because this thread is about Freeman. Just look at the title of the thread. I'll agree with you on one point, this team was a failure from coaching on down. Yes I said a talented WR corps and no I am not kidding. Last season Williams got 771 yards. I consider that pretty good considering the overall play of the offense. Just like Blount, considering his few carries and Olsen abandoning the run game early, his 781 yards is pretty good to me. Now I watched all the games last year except for Dallas. In each of those games I noticed Freeman had time in the pocket. Like most pockets they collapsed if the QB has the ball too long. The OL was far from great but not as bad as people make them out to be. Also look at the vids Java posted about Blount in the Vikings game (I think). The offense was so predictable they (and other teams) stacked the line because they new it was a run. I think the horrible coaching has masked the talent on the team. I beat if Joseph didn't go to the pro-bowl, most fans would not have recognized his play. As for the WR corps I am glad they got V Jackson although I am not sold on him yet. He had three good season out of seven. I am glad they young now have some veteran leadership in the corps because he seems like a high character guy. I believe he'll do well here. Also, I think picking him up has energized the fan base. Something the organization needed. Back to the subject. I have been focusing on Freeman because this is what the thread is about.

Since you brought it up, the thread is about whether or not the Bucs can win with Freeman. Since they did in 2010, the argument against yes is mute. Of course, they can win with Freeman. Will they? In about 8 months we'll know.

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#44 : April 02, 2012, 09:25:37 PM



Notice how on the last one when he steps up Jeff Faine is getting drilled 4 yards into the backfield off the snap?

Notice in that first one how Freeman never once looks to his left... post OR pre-snap?  That better get coached into him.  I see this mental breakdown on Freeman in a lot of clips that people post on here, not just the ones by Java.  This is apparently an issue that Olson never addressed.  Just fixing that one thing alone should improve Freeman greatly.

Also, notice how in the 2nd play, again... he never looks left with the exception of a quick glimpse pre-snap?  On both plays the defense was able to bring pressure from that side twice without any trouble.  Freeman didn't do anything to stop them... audible, roll out, time-out, blocking adjustment... nothing done at all.

Just more evidence to coaching ineptness.  They never addressed this with the kid to help him out.

It's impossible to tell about the pre-snap in the first on from that clip because it starts from a still -- notice nobody is moving. It's a quick pass with two reads right and apparently none left (can't see the eleventh guy though).  Winslow doesn't even try to get open.  Davin "Pro Bowl" Joseph get blown back so fast that he slams into Blount on the fake and with the reads right that's a huge issue.  Neither of the receivers got open there either  I think the replay seems like it is slower than realtime, but from the snap it is just under two seconds before Josh bails o the read and looks left (it may have been less if the clip was slowed down like I think).  His footwork is sloppy on the drop IMO.  He is sacked in under three seconds.  The takeaway from that one is that our line sucked.  Oh, and Penn didn't "Do his job" on that one, he never got the guy on the ground.  The play might have worked though had Joseph not been so completely raped.

On the second one, again, you don't see the full pre-snap although it's not a still.  Josh correctly identifies the pressure coming pre-snap as well.  He is getting rid of the ball in under two seconds because, again, the line pretty much collapses around him.  What's really sad about that is that he is in the gun, then drops back even more, so the linemen are actually eight yards behind the LOS in just one second. RT was especially bad.  So he has to dump it early and had to go to K2 ( Nobody was open at that point other than Winslow, so he wasn't forcing it that time).  And likely nobody was getting open any way that was either horrible routes or horrible design left.  A better showing by the line and he might have had the go open right in a second or so, but that is just a throwaway route IMO by Olson, play was designed for center-left.  Josh made the right call there as well.

On the third, the line is blown up as well (again RT was awful).  The play design was actually good on that one and people were about to get open, but again, the routes take longer than a second and a half to develop.  Given the time and distance (0:44 seconds left from your own 14) that's a deep ball that was called.   I think he made two reads to the right again, and never got (or felt he had) a chance to look left.  He is forced to throw off his back foot.  Now, he might have been able to step back and reset, but he's got happy feet on that play.  Again, the line is in his face seven yards back in under two seconds.

All in all his footwork looks a little sloppy in those plays, he never gets fully set (especially the last one).  Aaron Rodgers or Peyton or Brady might make their reads faster, but It's hard to say he locked onto guys from just those clips as he never really had time to go through a full progression.  The big takeaway from those clips is that our line really sucked on those plays.

: April 02, 2012, 09:27:09 PM caradoc
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