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Col. Klink

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#30 : May 21, 2012, 07:10:09 PM

If polygamists came forward and demanded the same "civil right", would you be in favor of that, too?

I've answered this question many times before.

Yes.


So, where's your line? Or is there one?

His line's probably where most open minded people's are on something like this .... children and animals (to be inclusive of all non-humans).

So you're saying that if you don't support gay marriage, or polygamy, you're close minded?

I thought that was pretty obvious ...


Quote
Interesting. How about if you support morals, where does that leave you?

Could you repeat the question because not sure what you're asking .... and please clarify whose morals?

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#31 : May 21, 2012, 07:13:22 PM


" at the end of the day a man and a woman is the only natural fit and that will always remain "

This is true for me, I really had no choice in the matter - which is why I don't see other people having a choice either. You seem to believe that they do, so I'm wondering what you're basing that on?

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

Col. Klink

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#32 : May 21, 2012, 07:13:57 PM

It's a slippery slope and if gay marriage becomes legal nationally you can bet your ass the polygamists are the next group we'll be hearing from. They'll get their wish too, because at that point the politicians will have already used the gay community for votes, and will be in search of the next group of people they can "help out".

Would be a smart move for the Obama camp to do that NOW ... siphon off some of those Romney voters from Utah.

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#33 : May 21, 2012, 07:14:22 PM

::)

If you don't agree, state why.

There's really too much to even respond to, but I would say that the "until there's definitive proof" bit is a cop out.  We all have a brain. Use it and ask yourself why in the world would anyone CHOOSE to be gay?  For goodness sakes, its hard to imagine something that carries a larger social stigma.  People are killed for being gay, ostracized for being gay, an entire large segment of our population consider gay people to be "sinners" some even apparently believeing they should be put to death:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/21/11795747-mississippi-pastor-lawmaker-denies-endorsing-the-killing-of-gays?lite

Gay people are actually or effectively disenfranchised from large segments of every day life even though aside from their sexual orientation they live their lives in exactly the same manner as others. A gay person cannot serve their country in the same manner as a straight person, are denied opportunity because of being gay, cannot have simple health care issues adressed as other people, cannot make the same plans in death as other people, cannot care for children, etc. I mean the list goes on. 

Seriously, why would somone choose to be gay? That's like saying that someone would "choose" to be an African-American in the 60s . .  and by that I mean the 1860s.
One of my childrens' grandfathers is gay.  He would laugh at the notion that he "chose" to be gay given all the heartache it has caused him and his family.

 Wow, you might want to think that one over for a while.
: May 21, 2012, 07:18:07 PM VinBucFan

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Escobar06

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#34 : May 21, 2012, 07:26:22 PM

If polygamists came forward and demanded the same "civil right", would you be in favor of that, too?

I've answered this question many times before.

Yes.


So, where's your line? Or is there one?

His line's probably where most open minded people's are on something like this .... children and animals (to be inclusive of all non-humans).

So you're saying that if you don't support gay marriage, or polygamy, you're close minded?

I thought that was pretty obvious ...


Quote
Interesting. How about if you support morals, where does that leave you?

Could you repeat the question because not sure what you're asking .... and please clarify whose morals?


Bingo.

Just as morals can be subjective, what one considers "open minded" is also subjective. I have my beliefs you have your own, you can't lump everyone who's against gay marriage in as close minded, that's simply your opinion. Millions would agree with the exact opposite, are they close minded too? This is why this issue annoys me so much, a group of people claim they deserve something and before you know it there are people like you assigning a negative phrase such as "close minded" to all those who oppose it. Let me ask you, why must people accept gay marriage? To me it's exactly the same as claiming someone has to agree with both sides concerning abortion, religion, or any other personal preference one might have. Why are we picking out an issue and telling people they have to accept it or they are close minded?
: May 21, 2012, 07:47:32 PM Escobar06

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#35 : May 21, 2012, 07:29:54 PM


" at the end of the day a man and a woman is the only natural fit and that will always remain "

This is true for me, I really had no choice in the matter - which is why I don't see other people having a choice either. You seem to believe that they do, so I'm wondering what you're basing that on?


And you might be right, I can't pretend to know the real answer...nobody can. But my opinion stems from my religious belief on the matter. I know that we don't agree on that issue so there's really not much left to say.

Escobar06

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#36 : May 21, 2012, 07:46:41 PM

::)

If you don't agree, state why.

There's really too much to even respond to, but I would say that the "until there's definitive proof" bit is a cop out.  We all have a brain. Use it and ask yourself why in the world would anyone CHOOSE to be gay?  For goodness sakes, its hard to imagine something that carries a larger social stigma.  People are killed for being gay, ostracized for being gay, an entire large segment of our population consider gay people to be "sinners" some even apparently believeing they should be put to death:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/21/11795747-mississippi-pastor-lawmaker-denies-endorsing-the-killing-of-gays?lite

Gay people are actually or effectively disenfranchised from large segments of every day life even though aside from their sexual orientation they live their lives in exactly the same manner as others. A gay person cannot serve their country in the same manner as a straight person, are denied opportunity because of being gay, cannot have simple health care issues adressed as other people, cannot make the same plans in death as other people, cannot care for children, etc. I mean the list goes on. 

Seriously, why would somone choose to be gay? That's like saying that someone would "choose" to be an African-American in the 60s . .  and by that I mean the 1860s.
One of my childrens' grandfathers is gay.  He would laugh at the notion that he "chose" to be gay given all the heartache it has caused him and his family.

 Wow, you might want to think that one over for a while.

I don't need to think anything over, I believe what I do and I have reasons. You might not agree with them, which is fine, but you aren't mentioning anything that I haven't read a thousand times before. How about this, a friend of mine has a younger brother in high school, he's informed me that the "cool" thing these days, especially for girls, is to be bi. Now, why do you think that is? Are all of these people, mostly girls, born bi? Are they pretending to be bi because they think it sounds cool and they want the guys at school to like them? Who knows, but I think it's a safe bet that many of these people aren't bi at all, they are CHOOSING to say they are. My friends wife is a school psychologist here in Florida. She told me that two girls (3rd graders) were caught passing notes in class, the notes were one girl telling the other girl she wanted to eat her you know what. Now, are these two girls gay? Did they hear that the older high school girls consider it cool and are just trying to follow suit? Who knows? Neither of us.

I also know several girls from high school who "experimented" in college, yet are today married with children. Where do situations like that fit in? Were they born gay, fought it off until college, and then buried it deep again after college deciding instead to get married and have children? I personally believe there are many "gay" people out there who are "gay" for one reason, attention. It's similar to a girl I know who dates guys with jealousy issues. The guy flips out constantly for no reason, certainly a bad situation, but it's one she chooses because negative attention is still attention, right? Why would anyone choose to be in a relationship like that? Not sure, but people do..every single day. Just because the negatives outweigh the benefits in any particular choice doesn't mean it wasn't in fact a choice.

CalcuttaRain

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#37 : May 21, 2012, 07:49:53 PM

Escobar, if it was determined that homosexuality was an immutable trait would your view change?

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\\\\\\\'s Cancer Center

CalcuttaRain

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#38 : May 21, 2012, 07:54:30 PM

::)

If you don't agree, state why.

There's really too much to even respond to, but I would say that the "until there's definitive proof" bit is a cop out.  We all have a brain. Use it and ask yourself why in the world would anyone CHOOSE to be gay?  For goodness sakes, its hard to imagine something that carries a larger social stigma.  People are killed for being gay, ostracized for being gay, an entire large segment of our population consider gay people to be "sinners" some even apparently believeing they should be put to death:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/21/11795747-mississippi-pastor-lawmaker-denies-endorsing-the-killing-of-gays?lite

Gay people are actually or effectively disenfranchised from large segments of every day life even though aside from their sexual orientation they live their lives in exactly the same manner as others. A gay person cannot serve their country in the same manner as a straight person, are denied opportunity because of being gay, cannot have simple health care issues adressed as other people, cannot make the same plans in death as other people, cannot care for children, etc. I mean the list goes on. 

Seriously, why would somone choose to be gay? That's like saying that someone would "choose" to be an African-American in the 60s . .  and by that I mean the 1860s.
One of my childrens' grandfathers is gay.  He would laugh at the notion that he "chose" to be gay given all the heartache it has caused him and his family.

 Wow, you might want to think that one over for a while.

I don't need to think anything over, I believe what I do and I have reasons. You might not agree with them, which is fine, but you aren't mentioning anything that I haven't read a thousand times before. How about this, a friend of mine has a younger brother in high school, he's informed me that the "cool" thing these days, especially for girls, is to be bi. Now, why do you think that is? Are all of these people, mostly girls, born bi? Are they pretending to be bi because they think it sounds cool and they want the guys at school to like them? Who knows, but I think it's a safe bet that many of these people aren't bi at all, they are CHOOSING to say they are. My friends wife is a school psychologist here in Florida. She told me that two girls (3rd graders) were caught passing notes in class, the notes were one girl telling the other girl she wanted to eat her you know what. Now, are these two girls gay? Did they hear that the older high school girls consider it cool and are just trying to follow suit? Who knows? Neither of us.

I also know several girls from high school who "experimented" in college, yet are today married with children. Where do situations like that fit in? Were they born gay, fought it off until college, and then buried it deep again after college deciding instead to get married and have children? I personally believe there are many "gay" people out there who are "gay" for one reason, attention. It's similar to a girl I know who dates guys with jealousy issues. The guy flips out constantly for no reason, certainly a bad situation, but it's one she chooses because negative attention is still attention, right? Why would anyone choose to be in a relationship like that? Not sure, but people do..every single day. Just because the negatives outweigh the benefits in any particular choice doesn't mean it wasn't in fact a choice.

Thats a lot of words with no answer to a simple question. Why would someone choose to be gay given all the negative?

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\\\\\\\'s Cancer Center

Escobar06

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#39 : May 21, 2012, 07:54:46 PM

Escobar, if it was determined that homosexuality was an immutable trait would your view change?


As of right now that's a hypothetical and IMO ridiculous to debate.

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#40 : May 21, 2012, 07:54:56 PM

I hear it's an acquired taste? Just saying.

                \'Every day above ground is a good day\'

Escobar06

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#41 : May 21, 2012, 07:57:02 PM

::)

If you don't agree, state why.

There's really too much to even respond to, but I would say that the "until there's definitive proof" bit is a cop out.  We all have a brain. Use it and ask yourself why in the world would anyone CHOOSE to be gay?  For goodness sakes, its hard to imagine something that carries a larger social stigma.  People are killed for being gay, ostracized for being gay, an entire large segment of our population consider gay people to be "sinners" some even apparently believeing they should be put to death:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/21/11795747-mississippi-pastor-lawmaker-denies-endorsing-the-killing-of-gays?lite

Gay people are actually or effectively disenfranchised from large segments of every day life even though aside from their sexual orientation they live their lives in exactly the same manner as others. A gay person cannot serve their country in the same manner as a straight person, are denied opportunity because of being gay, cannot have simple health care issues adressed as other people, cannot make the same plans in death as other people, cannot care for children, etc. I mean the list goes on. 

Seriously, why would somone choose to be gay? That's like saying that someone would "choose" to be an African-American in the 60s . .  and by that I mean the 1860s.
One of my childrens' grandfathers is gay.  He would laugh at the notion that he "chose" to be gay given all the heartache it has caused him and his family.

 Wow, you might want to think that one over for a while.

I don't need to think anything over, I believe what I do and I have reasons. You might not agree with them, which is fine, but you aren't mentioning anything that I haven't read a thousand times before. How about this, a friend of mine has a younger brother in high school, he's informed me that the "cool" thing these days, especially for girls, is to be bi. Now, why do you think that is? Are all of these people, mostly girls, born bi? Are they pretending to be bi because they think it sounds cool and they want the guys at school to like them? Who knows, but I think it's a safe bet that many of these people aren't bi at all, they are CHOOSING to say they are. My friends wife is a school psychologist here in Florida. She told me that two girls (3rd graders) were caught passing notes in class, the notes were one girl telling the other girl she wanted to eat her you know what. Now, are these two girls gay? Did they hear that the older high school girls consider it cool and are just trying to follow suit? Who knows? Neither of us.

I also know several girls from high school who "experimented" in college, yet are today married with children. Where do situations like that fit in? Were they born gay, fought it off until college, and then buried it deep again after college deciding instead to get married and have children? I personally believe there are many "gay" people out there who are "gay" for one reason, attention. It's similar to a girl I know who dates guys with jealousy issues. The guy flips out constantly for no reason, certainly a bad situation, but it's one she chooses because negative attention is still attention, right? Why would anyone choose to be in a relationship like that? Not sure, but people do..every single day. Just because the negatives outweigh the benefits in any particular choice doesn't mean it wasn't in fact a choice.

Thats a lot of words with no answer to a simple question. Why would someone choose to be gay given all the negative?


Apparently you need to read it again. You also could attempt to give your opinion regarding the multiple scenarios I brought up, and why it is you believe they take place. This isn't a one way street, I'm not on trial.

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#42 : May 21, 2012, 07:57:55 PM

Escobar, if it was determined that homosexuality was an immutable trait would your view change?


As of right now that's a hypothetical and IMO ridiculous to debate.

Hmm. I answered your hypothesis that homosexuality is by choice but you will not answer this simple question. Interesting.

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\\\\\\\'s Cancer Center

Escobar06

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#43 : May 21, 2012, 08:03:25 PM

It's not a simple question at all. It's an idea you created out of thin air that has very little chance of ever happening, and you're asking me to make believe that it did. Anyone can make up any scenario they want, demanding someone respond to it is absurd.


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#44 : May 21, 2012, 08:05:22 PM

It's not a simple question at all. It's an idea you created out of thin air that has very little chance of ever happening, and you're asking me to make believe that it did. Anyone can make up any scenario they want, demanding someone respond to it is absurd.

Ok, no problem. Just a question.  Interesting that it causes such concern
: May 21, 2012, 08:08:40 PM VinBucFan

Show the bravest of the brave kids that you have their back.  Go to http://www.childrenscancercenter.org/

Just check out the site or maybe like them on Facebook . .  or Share the site on Facebook, re-tweet one of their tweets.  Not everyone can give money to support this great cause, but its easy to give 10 seconds of your time to help spread the word about The Children\\\\\\\'s Cancer Center
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