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Ozymandias

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#195 : July 18, 2014, 09:18:19 PM


 There we go. We haven't had a good old mass copy and paste from Thomas in years.

it is NOT very difficult to limit access to guns
it is almost impossible to prevent someone with a mental illness from getting a gun.  

Ozymandias

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#196 : July 18, 2014, 09:21:27 PM

  "Ultimately your goal is to convince me that your viewpoint trumps God's viewpoint."

And this encapsulates the problem nicely. You've mistaken your opinion for God's opinion.

it is NOT very difficult to limit access to guns
it is almost impossible to prevent someone with a mental illness from getting a gun.  

OneTruth

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#197 : July 18, 2014, 09:28:06 PM

One of the strongest objective evidences for the validity of Christianity and the reliability of the Bible is the phenomenon of fulfilled prophecy. The Bible is unique among all other religious books in this regard. Although a few other religious books have made prophetic predictions, none of these predictions has been specifically fulfilled like those in the Bible. In most cases these non-Biblical prophesies do not come true at all. In other cases, their prophesies consist of only nebulous and vague forecasts that may seem to be fulfilled in a general way. The Bible however, contains literally hundreds of specific prophesies that have been fulfilled in specific ways. Furthermore, the Bible actually sets itself up for objective verification based on the fulfillment or non-fulfillment of its prophesies. For instance in Isaiah 41:21-23 and Isaiah 46:10, the Lord challenges the false gods of Babylon to prove themselves by predicting future events. In Deuteronomy 18:20-22, the test of a true prophet is infallibility. In other words if a prophet is from the Lord, his prophesies will always come true. Therefore, when studying Christian evidences it is vitally important that we include the topic of fulfilled prophecy, which is perhaps our best defense against the attacks of Bible critics.

Prophecies Regarding the Jewish Nation
One of the strongest evidences that the Bible is inspired of God is simply the existence of the Jewish nation. They are unique in all of history. What other nation in the history of the world has lost their homeland, been scattered throughout the rest of the world and been persecuted mercilessly, while still maintaining their national identity? No one has ever heard of a German Philistine, a Russian Moabite, or an American Edomite, because these ancient nations have all been absorbed into other cultures. Yet we have all heard of German Jews, Russian Jews, and American Jews. What's the difference between the Jewish nation and these other ancient nations? The answer is simple. God's promises and God's predictions concerning the Jewish nation are the difference. Back in Genesis 12:2-3 and 13:14-15 God promised a man by the name of Abram that He would make a great nation from his descendants, that through him all nations of the earth would be blessed, and that the "promised land" would belong to his descendents forever. Later in history after this nation was in the promised land, God warned them about the dangers of disobedience. They were promised blessings for obedience but predictions of persecution, suffering, and world-wide dispersion were made in the event that this nation turned their backs on God (for instance see Deuteronomy 28:64,66; Jeremiah 24:9; Hosea 9:17). Unfortunately, this is exactly what happened. It happened initially with the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, and it happened again with the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. In spite of this, however, God had no intentions of disregarding His promises to Abraham. Therefore, He promised that He would not totally destroy this disobedient nation and predicted a future re-gathering and restoration (see Jeremiah 30:11; Ezekiel 37:21; Isaiah 11:11-12, etc.). Today, contrary to all odds, we see that the nation of Israel once again possesses the "promised land" even though they are currently there in unbelief. Some day, however, they will recognize that the one they crucified nearly 2000 years ago was indeed their promised Messiah and they will turn to Him in repentance and belief (Zechariah 12:10).

Prophesies Regarding other Nations
Tyre and Sidon. In Ezekiel 26, we read of several specific prophetic predictions against the city-state of Tyre. They include:

Nebuchadnezzar will destroy the mainland city (.
Many nations will come against Tyre (3).
The city will become a bare rock (4)
Fisherman will spread their nets over the site (5).
The debris of the city will be thrown into the water (6).
The city will never be rebuilt (14,21).
As you might expect, each of these predictions was completely fulfilled in history. Interestingly enough, they were not fulfilled at the same time and place. Here's how they were fulfilled. [1]

1. Nebuchadnezzar did indeed destroy the mainland city of Tyre in 573 B.C. after a 13-year siege. However, upon entering the city he found that the majority of the people had fled by ship to the island city of Tyre about 1/2 mile off the coast.

2. History has also proven this prediction to be true. After Nebuchadnezzar's invasion, the island city was destroyed by Alexander the Great in 332 B.C. Towards the end of this attack Alexander assembled a navy from nations he had conquered. He had ships from Sidon, Aradus, Byblus, Rhodes, Cyprus and other nations help him in his campaign against Tyre. Although never recovering fully from this blow, the city recovered somewhat only to be destroyed again by Antigonus in 314 B.C. During the Middle Ages the city was captured by the Moslems. During the Crusades it was taken by the Crusaders only to be recaptured by the Moslems. At this point it was turned to ruins and remains so to this day. So there have indeed been many nations come against Tyre.

3. This prediction was fulfilled when Alexander started his campaign against the island fortress. Since he had no navy at first, he began to construct a causeway from the mainland to the island using the debris from the mainland city. This operation also fulfilled the fifth prophecy which predicted that the debris of the city would be thrown into the water.

4. The fulfillment of this prediction can be observed today. The only thing left on the cite of the original city is a small fishing village. Even today fisherman can be seen drying their nets upon the rocks.

5. This was fulfilled precisely as Alexander's engineers used the stones, timber and other debris from the mainland city to construct the ramp to the island.

6. This prophecy has also been fulfilled. Although ancient Sidon still exists, and although a modern city of Tyre exists a few miles down the coast, the ancient city has never been rebuilt after her complete destruction by the Moslems in A.D. 1291.

In contrast to her sister-city, Ezekiel does not predict destruction for the city-state of Sidon. He does, however, predict pestilence, much bloodshed, and the sword on every side (Ezekiel 28:22-23). History has certainly verified this prediction. Although the city of Sidon still stands today, it has had one of the bloodiest histories of any city in history. For instance in 351 B.C. the Sidonians rebelled against their Persian monarch. Unfortunately, their own king, in order to save his own life, betrayed them to the Persian king. As a result 40,000 Sidonians shut themselves up in their own homes, set fire to them, and died in the flames. In the days of the Crusades Sidon was captured three times by the Crusaders only to be recaptured three times by the Moslems. In modern times it has been the scene of conflicts between the Druses and the Turks and the French and the Turks. "Although Sidon has continued to exist as a city down even into the present, she has suffered more warfare and bloodshed than almost any other city in history." [2]

Thus, we see that the Bible is proven to be entirely accurate. Tyre has been destroyed permanently while Sidon has been destroyed and rebuilt several times and still exists today.

Edom/Petra. The Edomites were the descendents of Esau and their capital was the rock fortress of Petra. Six different Old Testament prophets make specific prophetic predictions about the fate of ancient Edom. One apologist has listed 9 of these specific predictions and has proceeded to detail their fulfillment in history. [3] The nine specific predictions are:

Edom will become a desolation (Isaiah 34:13)
It will never be populated again (Jeremiah 49:18)
It will be conquered by heathen nations (Jeremiah 49:14-15)
It will be conquered by Israel (Ezekiel 25:14)
It will have a bloody history (Ezekiel 35:5-6; Isaiah 34:6-7)
Edom will be made desolate as far as the city of Teman (Ezekiel 25:13)
Wild animals will inhabit the area (Isaiah 34:13-15)
Trade in the area will cease (Isaiah 34:10)
Spectators will be astonished (Jeremiah 49:17)
Again these prophesies were fulfilled over a long period of time. They were fulfilled as follows:

1. The first prophecy has clearly been fulfilled as Edom is nothing more than a desolate wilderness today.

2. The second has clearly been fulfilled as well. 3. The third prediction was fulfilled in the sixth century A.D. when the area was conquered by the Moslems.

4. The fourth prediction undoubtedly seemed far-fetched at the time because the Jews were still in the midst of the Babylonian captivity. However, approximately 4 centuries later (after the Jews gained a measure of independence in the Maccabean wars) thousands of Edomites were slain and forced to submit to Jewish circumcision after successful invasions led by Judas Maccabeus and John Hyrcanus.

5. The fifth prediction has been thoroughly fulfilled. Edom was invaded and plundered by Assyria, by Babylon, by the Nabataeans who migrated into Edom between the sixth and fourth Centuries B.C. [4], and finally by the Jews during the Maccabean wars.

6. This prediction has been remarkably fulfilled as Teman (called Maan today) is the only city of ancient Edom that is not deserted. It is located on the eastern border of the ancient nation.

7. The seventh prediction has been witnessed in modern times by travelers visiting the ancient ruins of Petra. Eagles, owls, serpents, scorpions, and other wild animals are abundant among its ruins.

8. In ancient days Edom was a crossroads of the trade routes. Great caravans used to pass through her lands. Today, however, only a few travelers seeking to view the ruins of ancient Petra are found in her vicinity.

9. "Astonishment" is an apt word to describe the feelings of those visiting Petra today. After being lost for over 1000 years it was rediscovered in 1812. Today one can see the remains of the many buildings carved out of the reddish colored mountain. One can also witness that the city was practically impregnable with only one narrow canyon-like entrance which could easily be defended by only a small band of men. Today this once-great fortress is full of rubble, debris and scorpions! One traveler stated:

Petra is a place which astonishes and baffles, but above all fascinates. Your first visit is an event in your life. Elemental feelings stir; again you know what awe is and humility. You have a sense of God's work through man and without man. If you have never experienced the sensation before, here at last you come under the spell of mystery. The place seems so remote, so unrelated to its surroundings...so undiscovered and so undiscoverable. What other city has been lost for a thousand years and at last, when stumbled upon by accident, has had still so much of its glory left with which to astonish the amazed traveler. [5]
The odds of all these predictions being fulfilled by blind chance are astronomical. Yet they were all fulfilled precisely as the Bible predicted. It is interesting to note that Bible critics used to criticize the Biblical references to Edom because she had been completely forgotten in secular history. However in the 19th Century, references to the Edomites were found in both Assyrian and Egyptian records. In addition, the ancient capitol of Petra was stumbled onto by Swiss traveler J. L. Burckhardt. Now in the 20th Century we recognize not only the existence of ancient Edom but also the incredible accuracy of the Biblical prophecy concerning her. Once again the Bible is proven right, and the critics are proven wrong!

These are just two of many examples that could be included under this section. Space prohibits us from examining fulfilled prophesies regarding other ancient nations. For those interested, however, it would be a fascinating study to examine the fulfilled prophesies regarding the nations/cities of Samaria, Nineveh, Babylon, Gaza-Ashkelon, and several others. [6]

Prophesies Regarding World History
Many examples could also be given under this heading. However, we will use only two examples.

Daniel's sequence of empires. A remarkably accurate view of world history is recorded in the book of Daniel in the form of two dreams: Nebuchadnezzar's in Daniel 2 and Daniel's in Daniel 7. Both dreams predict the future history of the world as it will be influenced by four successive empires. These dreams have been remarkably fulfilled by the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian, and Roman empires. Furthermore, more specific aspects of Daniel's prophesies, as found throughout the book of Daniel, have been specifically fulfilled in these empires. For instance, Daniel 11 with its detailed accounts of the wars between "the kings of the North" and "the kings of the South" (fulfilled in the struggles between the Ptolemies and the Seleucids) has baffled the critics. It had to be written after the fact, they argue, ignoring all internal and external evidences for the traditional date of Daniel (i.e. around 530 B.C.). [7]

Isaiah's Prophecy of Cyrus. One of the most fascinating of the Bible's many fulfilled prophesies is Isaiah's prophesy naming Cyrus as the king who will permit the temple and the city of Jerusalem to be rebuilt (Isaiah 44:28 and 45:1). At the time of Isaiah's prediction (approximately 700 B.C.) the city and the temple didn't need to be rebuilt because they were still standing (they were destroyed in 586 B.C by the Babylonians)! However, in approximately 539 B.C. a Persian king by the name of Cyrus conquered Babylon and decreed that the Jews could return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple. So, in essence, Isaiah predicted that a man named Cyrus, to be born over a hundred years later, would issue the command to rebuild the temple which would not be destroyed until over a hundred years later! Once again the odds of this prediction coming true by random chance are too astronomical to even consider.

OneTruth

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#198 : July 18, 2014, 09:28:29 PM

Prophesies Regarding the Messiah
Genesis 3:15 represents the first of many Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament. Its New Testament fulfillment is recorded in Galatians 4:4 and other references. As the Old Testament unfolds we learn more and more about the coming Messiah through further (progressive) revelation. For instance, we learn in Genesis 22:18 that the Messiah would be of the seed of Abraham. In Genesis 35:10-12 and Numbers 24:17 we learn that He will be of the seed of Jacob. In Genesis 49:10 we learn that He will be of the tribe of Judah. In II Samuel 7:12-16 and Jeremiah 23:5 we learn that He will be from the house of David. In Micah 5:2 we learn that He will be born in Bethlehem. In Isaiah 7:14 we learn that He will be born of a virgin, and that He will, in fact, be God incarnate (also see Psalm 2:7 and Isaiah 9:6). In Daniel's incredible prophecy of the 70 weeks (Daniel 9:24-27) we learn the exact time of His coming. [8] Each of these Messianic prophesies as well as several others [9] were literally fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ. The odds of this happening by random chance are inconceivably small. One scholar (Peter Stoner in his book Science Speaks) has chosen only eight of these Messianic prophesies (see below) and has calculated that the odds of one man fulfilling all eight of these prophesies is 1 in 10^17: [10]

Born at Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)
Preceded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3)
Entered Jerusalem on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9)
Betrayed by a friend (Psalm 41:9)
Sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zech. 11:12)
The silver subsequently thrown in God's house and used to buy the potter's field (Zech. 11:13)
He was silent before his accusers (Isaiah 53:7)
His hands and feet were pierced (Psalm 22:16)
Stoner illustrates this number by imagining that one took 10^17 silver dollars and placed them on the state of Texas. They would cover the entire state two feet deep. If we were then to mark one of the silver dollars, blindfold a man, and have him travel as far as he wishes to pick one silver dollar, the odds of the man picking the marked dollar would be the same as the odds of all eight of these prophesies coming true in any one man. Therefore, we can say with confidence that Jesus Christ was truly the promised Messiah first prophesied of in Genesis 3:15!

Stoner later considers 48 Messianic prophesies and concludes that the odds of them all being fulfilled in any one man is one in 10^157. This number is inconceivably larger than 10^17 and attempts to picture it (as Stoner does) simply boggle the mind. A number of this magnitude cannot be properly pictured by our finite minds, and no one should dare say that all 48 of these Messianic prophesies were fulfilled by chance! However, these 48 prophesies by no means represent all the Messianic prophesies fulfilled in Christ. There are actually over 90 Old Testament prophesies quoted by New Testament writers in a Messianic sense [11] as well as over 300 Old Testament references to the Messiah that were fulfilled in Jesus Christ of Nazareth. [12]

In this regard, it is significant to remember that the historic date for the completion of the Old Testament is around 450 B.C. Lest one should argue against this date and claim that each of these prophesies was written after the fact, we must remember that the Dead Sea Scrolls (dating from before the time of Christ - approximately 100 B.C.) contain fragments from nearly every Old Testament book. Furthermore, the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, was completed around 250 B.C., proving that the Hebrew Old Testament was complete well before the time of Christ.

Conclusion: From this evidence, we must conclude that Jesus Christ must have been the promised Messiah of the Old Testament. As such, He is unique in all of history, because no other religious leader (including Mohammed, Buddha, Confucius, etc.) in the history of the world has had specific prophesies fulfilled by his coming. Furthermore, we must conclude that the phenomenon of fulfilled prophecy (which is unique to the Bible) is yet another of the external tests that confirm the reliability of the Bible and of the Christian faith.


OneTruth

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#199 : July 18, 2014, 09:30:49 PM

I rest my case.

Escobar06

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#200 : July 18, 2014, 11:06:29 PM

  "Ultimately your goal is to convince me that your viewpoint trumps God's viewpoint."

And this encapsulates the problem nicely. You've mistaken your opinion for God's opinion.

Wrong. That goes for the one deleting sections of scripture. I post scripture (full scripture, to be exact) and repeat the meaning of that scripture, which isn't an amazing feat considering the scripture up for debate just happens to be the easiest to decipher. It's interesting that you singled out this response, considering it was directed at someone who claims God is a homophobe. Do you believe God accepts this viewpoint? You must, considering it's back to claiming my thoughts are simply "opinion".

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#201 : July 18, 2014, 11:55:51 PM

Everyone witnessed this

You have a mouse in your pocket? No one on your side here at all. Even OT is on his own side. You dodge stuff very well. I can see why you have NO ONE on your side......except Jesus I'm sure. :)

The number of people on my side is irrelevant.

How did we all know you'd say that?


What other reaction could I have? Let's review:

You - You have proven that you'll gladly delete (ignore) portions of scripture to protect your flawed opinions. When you sat around for "hours" discussing Bible verses with your family, did they also ignore portions that didn't fit the family agenda, or are you just the family rebel? Considering your obvious lack of accountability, I'm inclined to believe this type of behavior was common during your "study sessions".

Vin - As a "christian", he says the Bible proves nothing and that belief in Jesus is only a version of Christianity. When you ask him simple questions such as "Is faith in Jesus necessary for a Christian", he refuses to respond. If you venture into any of his countless gun control threads, you'll see the same type of behavior. He's really only interested in arguing (and attention).  He's also completely okay with you openly deleting portions of scripture you don't like, no true Christian would be in favor of such a thing.

Illuminator - An "agnostic" who acts more like an atheist, he finds Christianity laughable and believes none of it, yet strangely spends a lot of time talking about it.

Revis - An atheist who claims God is a misogynist, murderer, homophobe. Which is interesting considering there is no God, according to this person. If you want to take an opinion seriously from someone who insults people they don't even believe exist, you just go right ahead. I'm good.


Exactly what kind of support do you think I expected from a group of people like this? Not a single Christian in the group, and you're attempting to use their disagreement with me as a way to strengthen your argument? Not even you could be so foolish. Or can you?
: July 18, 2014, 11:57:58 PM Escobar06

Ozymandias

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#202 : July 20, 2014, 07:34:42 AM

"Ultimately your goal is to convince me that your viewpoint trumps God's viewpoint."

You see, Escobar, when you debate someone the contest is between your viewpoint and their viewpoint. But you try to label your viewpoint as God's viewpoint as if they are one and the same. You seem to be under the impression you are his chosen representative and that you speak for God himself.

it is NOT very difficult to limit access to guns
it is almost impossible to prevent someone with a mental illness from getting a gun.  

VinBucFan

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#203 : July 20, 2014, 07:51:21 PM

  "Ultimately your goal is to convince me that your viewpoint trumps God's viewpoint."

And this encapsulates the problem nicely. You've mistaken your opinion for God's opinion.

Wrong. That goes for the one deleting sections of scripture. I post scripture (full scripture, to be exact) and repeat the meaning of that scripture, which isn't an amazing feat considering the scripture up for debate just happens to be the easiest to decipher. It's interesting that you singled out this response, considering it was directed at someone who claims God is a homophobe. Do you believe God accepts this viewpoint? You must, considering it's back to claiming my thoughts are simply "opinion".

Before I even scrolled down the page I knew that if Escobar posted he would have posted an objection to Ozy's (spot on) comment. I knew Escobar would respond because Ozy's comment about OT is also applicable to Escobar. Lol. Too funny " I post the meaning". Lol.

Escobar, is racism a sin?


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#204 : July 20, 2014, 07:59:14 PM

"Ultimately your goal is to convince me that your viewpoint trumps God's viewpoint."

You see, Escobar, when you debate someone the contest is between your viewpoint and their viewpoint. But you try to label your viewpoint as God's viewpoint as if they are one and the same. You seem to be under the impression you are his chosen representative and that you speak for God himself.


Ha, I guess I should've just scrolled down further because here's Ozy making the same point (correctly)

Escobar, neither you nor OT are God, but you both post as if you are, you both post as if you have perfect knowledge of what God wants, what it means to be a Christian, and what the Bible means, as a few examples. Worse that that though, you condemn those who disagree, again as if you are a God yourself. Funny stuff ...or sad, perhaps. I guess that depends on perspective


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#205 : July 20, 2014, 08:02:23 PM

Everyone witnessed this

You have a mouse in your pocket? No one on your side here at all. Even OT is on his own side. You dodge stuff very well. I can see why you have NO ONE on your side......except Jesus I'm sure. :)

The number of people on my side is irrelevant.

How did we all know you'd say that?


What other reaction could I have? Let's review:

You - You have proven that you'll gladly delete (ignore) portions of scripture to protect your flawed opinions. When you sat around for "hours" discussing Bible verses with your family, did they also ignore portions that didn't fit the family agenda, or are you just the family rebel? Considering your obvious lack of accountability, I'm inclined to believe this type of behavior was common during your "study sessions".

Vin - As a "christian", he says the Bible proves nothing and that belief in Jesus is only a version of Christianity. When you ask him simple questions such as "Is faith in Jesus necessary for a Christian", he refuses to respond. If you venture into any of his countless gun control threads, you'll see the same type of behavior. He's really only interested in arguing (and attention).  He's also completely okay with you openly deleting portions of scripture you don't like, no true Christian would be in favor of such a thing.

Illuminator - An "agnostic" who acts more like an atheist, he finds Christianity laughable and believes none of it, yet strangely spends a lot of time talking about it.

Revis - An atheist who claims God is a misogynist, murderer, homophobe. Which is interesting considering there is no God, according to this person. If you want to take an opinion seriously from someone who insults people they don't even believe exist, you just go right ahead. I'm good.


Exactly what kind of support do you think I expected from a group of people like this? Not a single Christian in the group, and you're attempting to use their disagreement with me as a way to strengthen your argument? Not even you could be so foolish. Or can you?

Wow. Escobar how can you be God and a liar at the same time? Not sure why you're even taking about me in this long post but man, talk about crazy fiction. I guess you've got links to back that nonsense up? Yikes


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#206 : July 21, 2014, 07:51:37 AM

You have proven that you'll gladly delete (ignore) portions of scripture to protect your flawed opinions. When you sat around for "hours" discussing Bible verses with your family, did they also ignore portions that didn't fit the family agenda, or are you just the family rebel? Considering your obvious lack of accountability, I'm inclined to believe this type of behavior was common during your "study sessions".

You have all the answers so you tell me. Which is it? Would someone who's described as following the bible to the letter like my family and you twist stuff to their liking or am I just a rebel? The answer has already been posted if you look.

Let's go one step further. Why does that matter so much to you? Why are you so concerned with people who can pull your strings like a puppet? I know the Bible does that to you but why do you allow others to do the same thing? You are clearly a confused Christian. You can't seem to separate worldly stuff from Christian stuff. You wield them mixed together as if that marriage will ever work. I hope you figure out which way you want to go at some point because if you really believe the Bible you're headed down a path you don't want to follow. I'd stop trying to project my shortcomings on others if I were you. I think you need to spend more time with OT. He delivers a uniform message. 
: July 21, 2014, 07:54:56 AM Mayhem

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#207 : July 21, 2014, 12:32:48 PM

He's also completely okay with you openly deleting portions of scripture you don't like, no true Christian would be in favor of such a thing.
This just in - Martin Luther, not a true Christian!
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