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3rd String Kicker

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#15 : July 02, 2012, 08:21:20 AM

Quote from: BucBalla85
Gruden. He won the big game. Dungy would have been if he won it here.

My thoughts exactly. Definitely love both of these guys, but I seriously thought the Buccaneers hoisting a Lombardi in my lifetime was a pipe dream.


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#16 : July 02, 2012, 09:01:42 AM

I wouldn't go so far as to say we don't win a Superbowl without Gruden.... i will say we don't win one with Dungy. I believe that any coach with a lil bit of offense puts us over the top. Gruden's post 02 record is nothing to brag about.

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#17 : July 02, 2012, 09:16:35 AM

McKay is before my time, but since I've been watching Gruden most consistently maximized the talent he had and gave the team the best chance of winning on a week-to-week basis. He was done in by personnel decisions.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#18 : July 02, 2012, 09:21:42 AM

You're right, I won't give Raheem credit for anything. That's because he was clearly way out of his league coaching an NFL team. We all witnessed what an undisciplined mess the team became. The final 10 weeks of the season were very close to being the worst 10 weeks in franchise history. It really doesn't matter though, there aren't many players he left behind that will be worth a damn. That's why the Raheem/Wyche comparison is flawed. Wyche left us not only three of the best players in our history, but three of the best players in NFL history at their positions.
What happens if Freeman, McCoy, and Clayborn become cornerstone players who Schiano or some other coach? Shouldn't Morris get the same credit Wyche got? Morris at least had a winning season as coach. Wyche was a loser every year.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#19 : July 02, 2012, 09:34:32 AM

the NFL is about winning Championships.


I don't care about any other reasons, circumstances, or character Flaws. The man who was the Head Coach on the proudest day in franchise history is the best coach we ever had.

Jon Gruden.


Go Bucs 2012

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#20 : July 02, 2012, 09:45:15 AM

 Jon Gruden with very little doubt;he won with what he had and Dungy did not

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#21 : July 02, 2012, 10:38:35 AM

I wouldn't go so far as to say we don't win a Superbowl without Gruden.... i will say we don't win one with Dungy. I believe that any coach with a lil bit of offense puts us over the top. Gruden's post 02 record is nothing to brag about.

Really? I totally disagree

Most teams in the NFL would have lost to that Raiders team in the Superbowl...that was a pretty good team! You don't think Gruden knowing all the signals helped the ridiculous amount of INT's in that game...if I remember correct Gannon was one of the best QBs that year! After that SB win pretty much was the unraveling of this team, starting with Kiffin leaving (felt he and the D gave up when the news came out he was leaving). So basically this team had to win it that year...not so sure we would have beat a Gruden lead Raiders in the SB that year!

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#22 : July 02, 2012, 10:47:14 AM

I wouldn't go so far as to say we don't win a Superbowl without Gruden.... i will say we don't win one with Dungy. I believe that any coach with a lil bit of offense puts us over the top. Gruden's post 02 record is nothing to brag about.

Really? I totally disagree

Most teams in the NFL would have lost to that Raiders team in the Superbowl...that was a pretty good team! You don't think Gruden knowing all the signals helped the ridiculous amount of INT's in that game...if I remember correct Gannon was one of the best QBs that year! After that SB win pretty much was the unraveling of this team, starting with Kiffin leaving (felt he and the D gave up when the news came out he was leaving). So basically this team had to win it that year...not so sure we would have beat a Gruden lead Raiders in the SB that year!
The real Super Bowl was against the Eagles in the NFC Championship. The Raiders weren't that good and with the Barrett Robbins fiasco, they were dead in the water. If the Bucs hadn't best the Eagles, the Eagles would have killed the Raiders, too. Hugh Douglas and Corey Simon would have blown through the offensive line on every play just like Rice and Sapp did and Duce Staley would have gotten to the second level on every rush just like Michael Pittman did.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#23 : July 02, 2012, 11:15:26 AM

I wouldn't go so far as to say we don't win a Superbowl without Gruden.... i will say we don't win one with Dungy. I believe that any coach with a lil bit of offense puts us over the top. Gruden's post 02 record is nothing to brag about.

Really? I totally disagree

Most teams in the NFL would have lost to that Raiders team in the Superbowl...that was a pretty good team! You don't think Gruden knowing all the signals helped the ridiculous amount of INT's in that game...if I remember correct Gannon was one of the best QBs that year! After that SB win pretty much was the unraveling of this team, starting with Kiffin leaving (felt he and the D gave up when the news came out he was leaving). So basically this team had to win it that year...not so sure we would have beat a Gruden lead Raiders in the SB that year!
The real Super Bowl was against the Eagles in the NFC Championship. The Raiders weren't that good and with the Barrett Robbins fiasco, they were dead in the water. If the Bucs hadn't best the Eagles, the Eagles would have killed the Raiders, too. Hugh Douglas and Corey Simon would have blown through the offensive line on every play just like Rice and Sapp did and Duce Staley would have gotten to the second level on every rush just like Michael Pittman did.


Agreed.

Show No MRSA..

FIRE SCHIANO!!!!

Its so hard for me to sit back on this forum, lookin at a guy on here, holler in\' my name!  When last year i spent more on 5 electric bills from this side of the country to the other, than you made! You\'re talkin to the Rolex wearing, diamond earring wearing, kiss-stealin, WOOOO!, wheelin dealin\', CTS drivin, jet-flyin sonofagun.. And I\'m havin a hard time holding these alligators down! WOOOO!

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#24 : July 02, 2012, 11:50:16 AM

It's amazing to me that after this many years Dungy still gets credit for the "foundation", and from "starting from ground zero", when Wyche is the man who deserves the credit. Sapp, Brooks, and Lynch were the foundation, all three were here before Dungy arrived. How can a fan of the Buccaneers not know that?

By "foundation" they mean by putting in place a system and culture, much the same way that Schiano is trying to accomplish with the Bucs. Yes, Brooks, Sapp and Lynch were here before Dungy but the team stunk and so did they until Dungy came along and instilled a hard-work-ethic and discipline and an environment for learning. Schiano inherited a whole bunch of young top draft picks, too, but they haven't accomplished anything yet. Are you gonna give Morris the credit for that if Schiano turns things around and builds a consistent winner? I don't think so. Wyche, Gruden, Morris....they all had their moments but none of them could build a consistent winner nor a winning "culture" like Dungy did.

Dungy wouldn't have built a winner without Sapp, Brooks, or Lynch. That's just a fact. Those three players made the scheme, without them neither the culture or system would have mattered. In fact I'm pretty certain that we never would have even made the playoffs under Dungy without those three players. People want to talk about Dungy being a better coach than Gruden while at the same time claiming Gruden won with Dungy's players. That's so ass backwards it's not even funny. If Dungy was a better coach than Gruden, he would have had more success than Gruden had with "his" players, right?

You're right, I won't give Raheem credit for anything. That's because he was clearly way out of his league coaching an NFL team. We all witnessed what an undisciplined mess the team became. The final 10 weeks of the season were very close to being the worst 10 weeks in franchise history. It really doesn't matter though, there aren't many players he left behind that will be worth a damn. That's why the Raheem/Wyche comparison is flawed. Wyche left us not only three of the best players in our history, but three of the best players in NFL history at their positions.


Did you ever stop to think that those 3 players may not have become the best players in the NFL history at their positions if they didn't have Dungy to coach and mentor them? None of them were exactly setting the world on fire until they had been under his tutelage for a couple of years. Look at all the top 1st round talent the Bucs have on the team now. Wouldn't you agree their talent has been floundering up until now? Has Mccoy lived up to his billing? Talib? Freeman? Coaching matters and culture matters (see New England for an example). Dungy only had one losing season his entire coaching career with the Bucs. Can Wyche, Gruden or Morris make that claim?...and Dungy inherited a perennial loser which Gruden or Morris didn't.

Dungy inherited a perennial loser, but the players most responsible for the turnaround were already here. I forgot about Nickerson, he was also here before Dungy. Do you honestly believe Dungy's new "culture" would have been worth a damn without Brooks, Sapp, Lynch, or Nickerson? His offenses didn't amount to much, and his best defensive players were already in place. I'm not saying he didn't do anything, but what he did do has been highly overrated for awhile now.

Gruden also took over a team on the decline, and a team that spent zip most of his tenure. Do you not believe Gruden would have had the same success if he took over in 96 instead of Dungy? Conversely, do you believe Dungy would have won us a Super Bowl if he took over in 2002?

Dungy took another perennial loser (Indy) that had an atrocious defense and made their defense decent and won a Super Bowl. So, to answer your question, just like he found Simeon Rice and developed Lynch Sapp, and Brooks, I think he would have still made a winner out of Tampa. You say Gruden inherited a team on the decline? I don't think so. He inherited a team on the cusp of greatness.

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#25 : July 02, 2012, 12:11:00 PM

Dungy turned around a horrible franchise not Wyche.  Gruden had that year where he took us over the top but his teams were never the same after that indy comeback.  Seemed like the balloon popped that day.

I can remember watching Chris Berman on ESPN and getting so excited we were turning it around..."Don't call em the Yucks anymore!!!!"

Gruden got us over the hump and I am forever grateful but Dungy set the table and cooked most of the food for that feast.

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#26 : July 02, 2012, 12:22:43 PM

Gruden did not inherit a team on the decline. But he left it that way.

Learn to disagree without being disagreeable-Ronald Reagan circa 1981

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#27 : July 02, 2012, 12:27:54 PM


Gruden inherited a team whose window was closing. The '99 team was on the cusp of greatness, and Dungy stubbornly squandered it.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

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#28 : July 02, 2012, 12:33:20 PM

The real Super Bowl was against the Eagles in the NFC Championship. The Raiders weren't that good and with the Barrett Robbins fiasco, they were dead in the water. If the Bucs hadn't best the Eagles, the Eagles would have killed the Raiders, too. Hugh Douglas and Corey Simon would have blown through the offensive line on every play just like Rice and Sapp did and Duce Staley would have gotten to the second level on every rush just like Michael Pittman did.

Completely agree.

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#29 : July 02, 2012, 12:40:13 PM

I wouldn't go so far as to say we don't win a Superbowl without Gruden.... i will say we don't win one with Dungy. I believe that any coach with a lil bit of offense puts us over the top. Gruden's post 02 record is nothing to brag about.

Really? I totally disagree

Most teams in the NFL would have lost to that Raiders team in the Superbowl...that was a pretty good team! You don't think Gruden knowing all the signals helped the ridiculous amount of INT's in that game...if I remember correct Gannon was one of the best QBs that year! After that SB win pretty much was the unraveling of this team, starting with Kiffin leaving (felt he and the D gave up when the news came out he was leaving). So basically this team had to win it that year...not so sure we would have beat a Gruden lead Raiders in the SB that year!
The real Super Bowl was against the Eagles in the NFC Championship. The Raiders weren't that good and with the Barrett Robbins fiasco, they were dead in the water. If the Bucs hadn't best the Eagles, the Eagles would have killed the Raiders, too. Hugh Douglas and Corey Simon would have blown through the offensive line on every play just like Rice and Sapp did and Duce Staley would have gotten to the second level on every rush just like Michael Pittman did.
''THE REAL SUPER BOWL WAS AGAINST THE EAGLES'' is really the essence of why I have always supported Gruden. Dungy created the monster then couldn't slay it. Gruden did, not only in 2002, but to open 2003 (which validated the title).

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