Welcome, Guest
Pewter Report  >>  Boards  >>  The Red Board (Moderators: 3rd String Kicker, PRPatrol)  >>  Topic: Who is the best coach in Tampa Bay Buccaneers history? « previous next »
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 7

Rusty

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 11226
Offline
#30 : July 02, 2012, 12:40:17 PM

Gruden....but Dungy put a lot of bricks in the wall.

                \'Every day above ground is a good day\'

jerseybucsfan

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 13534
Offline
#31 : July 02, 2012, 12:42:24 PM

Gruden did not inherit a team on the decline. But he left it that way.
11 wins plus a playoff win
then 10 wins plus a bad playoff loss
then 9 wins plus a worse playoff loss
Isn't that decline? How do you exonerate Dungy for that? Either Gruden made something out of nothing OR Dungy made nothing out something.

In Verner We Trust

jerseybucsfan

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 13534
Offline
#32 : July 02, 2012, 12:44:17 PM

Gruden....but Dungy put a lot of bricks in the wall.
That's fair.
Dungy and McKay share the title for best builders. Gruden is the best coach in the sense of finishing.
But this franchise has yet to answer this question definitively in the bottom to top sense.
Would be nice if Schiano did it, wouldn't it?

In Verner We Trust

jerseybucsfan

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 13534
Offline
#33 : July 02, 2012, 12:49:06 PM

It's amazing to me that after this many years Dungy still gets credit for the "foundation", and from "starting from ground zero", when Wyche is the man who deserves the credit. Sapp, Brooks, and Lynch were the foundation, all three were here before Dungy arrived. How can a fan of the Buccaneers not know that?

By "foundation" they mean by putting in place a system and culture, much the same way that Schiano is trying to accomplish with the Bucs. Yes, Brooks, Sapp and Lynch were here before Dungy but the team stunk and so did they until Dungy came along and instilled a hard-work-ethic and discipline and an environment for learning. Schiano inherited a whole bunch of young top draft picks, too, but they haven't accomplished anything yet. Are you gonna give Morris the credit for that if Schiano turns things around and builds a consistent winner? I don't think so. Wyche, Gruden, Morris....they all had their moments but none of them could build a consistent winner nor a winning "culture" like Dungy did.

Dungy wouldn't have built a winner without Sapp, Brooks, or Lynch. That's just a fact. Those three players made the scheme, without them neither the culture or system would have mattered. In fact I'm pretty certain that we never would have even made the playoffs under Dungy without those three players. People want to talk about Dungy being a better coach than Gruden while at the same time claiming Gruden won with Dungy's players. That's so ass backwards it's not even funny. If Dungy was a better coach than Gruden, he would have had more success than Gruden had with "his" players, right?

You're right, I won't give Raheem credit for anything. That's because he was clearly way out of his league coaching an NFL team. We all witnessed what an undisciplined mess the team became. The final 10 weeks of the season were very close to being the worst 10 weeks in franchise history. It really doesn't matter though, there aren't many players he left behind that will be worth a damn. That's why the Raheem/Wyche comparison is flawed. Wyche left us not only three of the best players in our history, but three of the best players in NFL history at their positions.


Did you ever stop to think that those 3 players may not have become the best players in the NFL history at their positions if they didn't have Dungy to coach and mentor them? None of them were exactly setting the world on fire until they had been under his tutelage for a couple of years. Look at all the top 1st round talent the Bucs have on the team now. Wouldn't you agree their talent has been floundering up until now? Has Mccoy lived up to his billing? Talib? Freeman? Coaching matters and culture matters (see New England for an example). Dungy only had one losing season his entire coaching career with the Bucs. Can Wyche, Gruden or Morris make that claim?...and Dungy inherited a perennial loser which Gruden or Morris didn't.

Dungy inherited a perennial loser, but the players most responsible for the turnaround were already here. I forgot about Nickerson, he was also here before Dungy. Do you honestly believe Dungy's new "culture" would have been worth a damn without Brooks, Sapp, Lynch, or Nickerson? His offenses didn't amount to much, and his best defensive players were already in place. I'm not saying he didn't do anything, but what he did do has been highly overrated for awhile now.

Gruden also took over a team on the decline, and a team that spent zip most of his tenure. Do you not believe Gruden would have had the same success if he took over in 96 instead of Dungy? Conversely, do you believe Dungy would have won us a Super Bowl if he took over in 2002?

Dungy took another perennial loser (Indy) that had an atrocious defense and made their defense decent and won a Super Bowl. So, to answer your question, just like he found Simeon Rice and developed Lynch Sapp, and Brooks, I think he would have still made a winner out of Tampa. You say Gruden inherited a team on the decline? I don't think so. He inherited a team on the cusp of greatness.
In all due respect to Dungy, Indy wasn't a perennial loser. They were a 13-win team in 1999 and a 10-win team in 2000. Mora lost his job because they had a bad year in 2001 and he let the wheels fall off. Without that bad year, Dungy doesn't inherit Dwight Freeney, the most important player on that defense. But inheriting Peyton Manning at the beginning of his prime is the ultimate bit of luck, not proof of his excellence.

In Verner We Trust

The Anomaly

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 3315
Online
#34 : July 02, 2012, 01:00:11 PM

If Gruden inherited a team on the decline....how did he do on that rebuild?  Oh.  I gotcha.  He basically can't build d!ck it all has to be done for him.  I understand now.  Come in at the very end and then try to take all the credit.

I get it.  He got us over the hump.  Does anyone think Gruden could ever do what Dungy did?  He proved he couldn't.  So Dungy could do what Gruden couldn't by building a winner and Gruden could do what Dungy finally did in Indy in getting them over the hump.

What's tougher?  Building a winner from scratch or tweeking a team over the top?

I think therein lies your answer.

Chief Joseph

User is banned from postingMuted
******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 4309
Offline
#35 : July 02, 2012, 01:06:46 PM


I agree, that is your answer. 1 Lombardi > 0 Lombardi.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

jerseybucsfan

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 13534
Offline
#36 : July 02, 2012, 02:08:03 PM

If Gruden inherited a team on the decline....how did he do on that rebuild?  Oh.  I gotcha.  He basically can't build d!ck it all has to be done for him.  I understand now.  Come in at the very end and then try to take all the credit.

I get it.  He got us over the hump.  Does anyone think Gruden could ever do what Dungy did?  He proved he couldn't.  So Dungy could do what Gruden couldn't by building a winner and Gruden could do what Dungy finally did in Indy in getting them over the hump.

What's tougher?  Building a winner from scratch or tweeking a team over the top?

I think therein lies your answer.
Tweak? That was one helluva tweak. Raheem and McKay showed you can take any team to 10 wins. In all due respect, Gruden did more than tweak. Did he disappoint afterward? Obviously. It wasn't torn down as soon as it should have been, money was wasted on has-been FAs and the draft choices were poor. But when he had the talent AND it stayed healthy, he got the most out of it.

In Verner We Trust

Skull and Bones

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 22255
Offline
#37 : July 02, 2012, 02:25:45 PM

[quote author=CyberDilemma link=topic=1296203.msg1698103#msg1698103 date=1341244216

Dungy took another perennial loser (Indy) that had an atrocious defense and made their defense decent and won a Super Bowl. So, to answer your question, just like he found Simeon Rice and developed Lynch Sapp, and Brooks, I think he would have still made a winner out of Tampa. You say Gruden inherited a team on the decline? I don't think so. He inherited a team on the cusp of greatness.
[/quote]  oh please, he took over a team with one of the greatest QB to play the game entering his prime and floundered numourous opportunities.  A bum like him Caswell proved anyone could have coached that team to 13-3 every year.


Skull and Bones

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 22255
Offline
#38 : July 02, 2012, 02:29:04 PM

If Gruden inherited a team on the decline....how did he do on that rebuild?  Oh.  I gotcha.  He basically can't build d!ck it all has to be done for him.  I understand now.  Come in at the very end and then try to take all the credit.

I get it.  He got us over the hump.  Does anyone think Gruden could ever do what Dungy did?  He proved he couldn't.  So Dungy could do what Gruden couldn't by building a winner and Gruden could do what Dungy finally did in Indy in getting them over the hump.

What's tougher?  Building a winner from scratch or tweeking a team over the top?

I think therein lies your answer.
. How did dungy build the team from scratch?  Rich McKay made all personnel decisions and his best players predated him anyways.


dbrooks55

****
Starter

Posts : 425
Offline
#39 : July 02, 2012, 02:46:41 PM

If Gruden inherited a team on the decline....how did he do on that rebuild?  Oh.  I gotcha.  He basically can't build d!ck it all has to be done for him.  I understand now.  Come in at the very end and then try to take all the credit.

I get it.  He got us over the hump.  Does anyone think Gruden could ever do what Dungy did?  He proved he couldn't.  So Dungy could do what Gruden couldn't by building a winner and Gruden could do what Dungy finally did in Indy in getting them over the hump.

What's tougher?  Building a winner from scratch or tweeking a team over the top?

I think therein lies your answer.

Didn't Dungy do the same thing in Indy? Gruden came in and helped the offense just enough to get them over the hump...as Dungy did with Indy's D.

richbucsfan

****
Starter

Posts : 562
Offline
#40 : July 02, 2012, 05:18:45 PM

Greg Schiano ... his record is unblemished

Escobar06

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 2330
Offline
#41 : July 02, 2012, 07:31:48 PM

It's amazing to me that after this many years Dungy still gets credit for the "foundation", and from "starting from ground zero", when Wyche is the man who deserves the credit. Sapp, Brooks, and Lynch were the foundation, all three were here before Dungy arrived. How can a fan of the Buccaneers not know that?

By "foundation" they mean by putting in place a system and culture, much the same way that Schiano is trying to accomplish with the Bucs. Yes, Brooks, Sapp and Lynch were here before Dungy but the team stunk and so did they until Dungy came along and instilled a hard-work-ethic and discipline and an environment for learning. Schiano inherited a whole bunch of young top draft picks, too, but they haven't accomplished anything yet. Are you gonna give Morris the credit for that if Schiano turns things around and builds a consistent winner? I don't think so. Wyche, Gruden, Morris....they all had their moments but none of them could build a consistent winner nor a winning "culture" like Dungy did.

Dungy wouldn't have built a winner without Sapp, Brooks, or Lynch. That's just a fact. Those three players made the scheme, without them neither the culture or system would have mattered. In fact I'm pretty certain that we never would have even made the playoffs under Dungy without those three players. People want to talk about Dungy being a better coach than Gruden while at the same time claiming Gruden won with Dungy's players. That's so ass backwards it's not even funny. If Dungy was a better coach than Gruden, he would have had more success than Gruden had with "his" players, right?

You're right, I won't give Raheem credit for anything. That's because he was clearly way out of his league coaching an NFL team. We all witnessed what an undisciplined mess the team became. The final 10 weeks of the season were very close to being the worst 10 weeks in franchise history. It really doesn't matter though, there aren't many players he left behind that will be worth a damn. That's why the Raheem/Wyche comparison is flawed. Wyche left us not only three of the best players in our history, but three of the best players in NFL history at their positions.


Did you ever stop to think that those 3 players may not have become the best players in the NFL history at their positions if they didn't have Dungy to coach and mentor them? None of them were exactly setting the world on fire until they had been under his tutelage for a couple of years. Look at all the top 1st round talent the Bucs have on the team now. Wouldn't you agree their talent has been floundering up until now? Has Mccoy lived up to his billing? Talib? Freeman? Coaching matters and culture matters (see New England for an example). Dungy only had one losing season his entire coaching career with the Bucs. Can Wyche, Gruden or Morris make that claim?...and Dungy inherited a perennial loser which Gruden or Morris didn't.

Dungy inherited a perennial loser, but the players most responsible for the turnaround were already here. I forgot about Nickerson, he was also here before Dungy. Do you honestly believe Dungy's new "culture" would have been worth a damn without Brooks, Sapp, Lynch, or Nickerson? His offenses didn't amount to much, and his best defensive players were already in place. I'm not saying he didn't do anything, but what he did do has been highly overrated for awhile now.

Gruden also took over a team on the decline, and a team that spent zip most of his tenure. Do you not believe Gruden would have had the same success if he took over in 96 instead of Dungy? Conversely, do you believe Dungy would have won us a Super Bowl if he took over in 2002?

Dungy took another perennial loser (Indy) that had an atrocious defense and made their defense decent and won a Super Bowl. So, to answer your question, just like he found Simeon Rice and developed Lynch Sapp, and Brooks, I think he would have still made a winner out of Tampa. You say Gruden inherited a team on the decline? I don't think so. He inherited a team on the cusp of greatness.


The Colts had made the playoffs twice in the three years preceding Dungy's arrival, nice try. They also had Manning/James/Harrison/Wayne on board already, and again, without those players Dungy has very little if any success in Indy. He turned an atrocious defense into a decent defense, that's the extent of Dungy's influence.

I'm not sure what you mean by "he found Simeon Rice". Are you insinuating Rice was some hidden gem that few were aware of? I hope not, the guy was widely known as one of the best DE's in the league during his FA period, Dungy "found" him because we offered him money which he accepted. I'm not saying he didn't help develop the players I mentioned, but those players were born to be great regardless. It's almost as if you're making it sound like any player can reach that level if only the great Dungy had coached them.

Gruden didn't inherit a team "on the cusp of greatness", that was true years before Gruden was ever hired here. He inherited a team whose talent was going to waste by Dungy. If Gruden took over in 96 instead of Dungy, we'd have 2-3 championships instead of one. We definitely would have won in 99, and probably once more in 2000 or 2001.
: July 02, 2012, 08:56:04 PM Escobar06

Dolorous Jason

******
Hall of Famer

Posts : 15615
Online
#42 : July 02, 2012, 07:43:35 PM

This question is a no-brainer:


What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

muvlodge

*
Pro Bowler
*****
Posts : 1048
Offline
#43 : July 02, 2012, 08:30:18 PM

GRUDEN.....No brainer.   Dungy would be still trying to win games 6-3

olafberserker

*
Hall of Famer
******
Posts : 21213
Offline
#44 : July 02, 2012, 08:45:12 PM


Gruden inherited a team whose window was closing. The '99 team was on the cusp of greatness, and Dungy stubbornly squandered it.

this
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 7
Pewter Report  >>  Boards  >>  The Red Board (Moderators: 3rd String Kicker, PRPatrol)  >>  Topic: Who is the best coach in Tampa Bay Buccaneers history? « previous next »
:

Hide Tools Show Tools