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spartan

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« #135 : August 24, 2012, 04:52:08 PM »

Now find me the text on how cancer cells function, and point out the differences to me. I'll wait.

Cancer cells kill you and babies don't? Usually anyway. After they are born, now that's a different question!

So because human embryos don't kill you, usually anyway, that means that they are alive?

The point of my darts here and there is to try and find out at what point you think "it" is a baby and alive.

Biggs3535

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« #136 : August 24, 2012, 06:02:36 PM »

So should all women who have received abortions and doctors who have performed them be tried and convicted of murder in the 1st degree? You never answered that question.

I didn't answer it because it's kind of a silly question, but the answer is clearly "no".  Why would anyone be tried and convicted of anything that is currently legal?

That's  dodging the question. I didn't ask you what would happen, I asked you what you would want to have happen. Clearly, you want abortion to be banned on the grounds that it is murder. So say it is. How do you enforce it? Is it murder 1 for the young mother that goes the back alley route, or that makes the trip down to Mexico or up to Canada?

Actually, I didn't dodge anything.  You did use past tense and ask me "should all women who have received abortions and doctors who have performed them be tried and convicted of murder in the 1st degree?"

Now, your question is if abortion is determined illegal on the basis of it's murdering a baby and a doctor performs an abortion (as a means of birth control, we're not talking about mother-dying stuff), then yes that doctor should be treated like any other murderer in the criminal justice system.  And the mother would be some sort of accomplice, I suppose.


Mr. Milich

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« #137 : August 24, 2012, 06:28:08 PM »

Would this be a good point to bring the "the morning after pill" into the discussion?

dbucfan

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« #138 : August 24, 2012, 06:36:55 PM »

Now find me the text on how cancer cells function, and point out the differences to me. I'll wait.

Cancer cells kill you and babies don't? Usually anyway. After they are born, now that's a different question!

So because human embryos don't kill you, usually anyway, that means that they are alive?

The point of my darts here and there is to try and find out at what point you think "it" is a baby and alive.
And that is the question I put forth - and remains unanswered as other issues arose with other posters.  And CBW if you feel that is none of my business that is a fine answer.  This topic is one where discomfort exists for just about everyone. 

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

CBWx2

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« #139 : August 24, 2012, 06:44:14 PM »

Now find me the text on how cancer cells function, and point out the differences to me. I'll wait.

Cancer cells kill you and babies don't? Usually anyway. After they are born, now that's a different question!

So because human embryos don't kill you, usually anyway, that means that they are alive?

The point of my darts here and there is to try and find out at what point you think "it" is a baby and alive.

That's really irrelevant given that I am not the one calling for a ban. But if you want to know my personal belief, I think that only in rare cases should someone opt for abortion after the first trimester, and I certainly wouldn't choose to go that route or counsel a loved one to go that route after that period. But that is my personal belief. I certainly am not going to stand here and pretend to have some irrefutable scientific evidence that supports that my personal belief is fact and that it should be the law in which all others should be forced to abide by.

Now, your question is if abortion is determined illegal on the basis of it's murdering a baby and a doctor performs an abortion (as a means of birth control, we're not talking about mother-dying stuff), then yes that doctor should be treated like any other murderer in the criminal justice system.  And the mother would be some sort of accomplice, I suppose.

Wow. Well I at least give you credit for consistency. Question now is, how do you convict someone of murder without being able to provide irrefutable evidence that they actually killed someone?
« : August 24, 2012, 06:50:31 PM CBWx2 »


dbucfan

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« #140 : August 24, 2012, 06:54:29 PM »

Now find me the text on how cancer cells function, and point out the differences to me. I'll wait.

Cancer cells kill you and babies don't? Usually anyway. After they are born, now that's a different question!

So because human embryos don't kill you, usually anyway, that means that they are alive?

The point of my darts here and there is to try and find out at what point you think "it" is a baby and alive.

That's really irrelevant given that I am not the one calling for a ban. But if you want to know my personal belief, I think that only in rare cases should someone opt for abortion after the first trimester, and I certainly wouldn't choose to go that route or counsel a loved one to go that route after that period. But that is my personal belief. I certainly am not going to stand here and pretend to have some irrefutable scientific evidence that supports that my personal belief is fact and that it should be the law in which all others should be forced to abide by.
I think most would find a similar rationale for a variety of answers.  I think just about everyone (there is a really smart group that knows everything) has a thought or reason with accompanying questions or issues for themselves on this topic. 

As for relevance, of course it is relevant to know that folks are comparing points in a pregnancy's term perhaps without having a great answer, as opposed to actual birth, or in worse which is found the the new post birth abortion concepts.  And that is not new either, should anyone wish to either correct me or wonder.  One example off the top of my head would include the Spartans of Greece. 

So thanks CBW - I appreciate the candor.  Take care.

\"A Great Coach has to have a Patient Wife, A Loyal Dog, and a Great Quarterback. . . . but not necessarily in that order\" ~ Coach Bud Grant

Biggs3535

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« #141 : August 24, 2012, 07:14:12 PM »

Wow. Well I at least give you credit for consistency. Question now is, how do you convict someone of murder without being able to provide irrefutable evidence that they actually killed someone?


I thought you were asking me to work under the hypothetical that abortion has been made illegal because it's murder:


Clearly, you want abortion to be banned on the grounds that it is murder. So say it is.

Are you changing your hypothetical?



Would this be a good point to bring the "the morning after pill" into the discussion?

Personally, I don't have a problem with the MAP.  There are no signs of life at that point.


CBWx2

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« #142 : August 24, 2012, 07:32:06 PM »

Wow. Well I at least give you credit for consistency. Question now is, how do you convict someone of murder without being able to provide irrefutable evidence that they actually killed someone?


I thought you were asking me to work under the hypothetical that abortion has been made illegal because it's murder:


Clearly, you want abortion to be banned on the grounds that it is murder. So say it is.

Are you changing your hypothetical?

I suppose I am. I apologize. Here's my issue, Biggs; you cannot prove that abortion, especially early term abortion is murder, yet you are promoting an agenda to coin it as such and convict those who provide and receive abortions with a crime that you cannot actually prove that they have committed. In what world is that a rational agenda? What other US laws operate that way?


VinBucFan

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« #143 : August 25, 2012, 12:58:40 AM »

And here I thought we were going to meet at a Bucs game and become best buds and all...  ::)


Hahahahha!

I knew that was going to come up at some point.

Did you think it would be in less than two hours? Have to admit, even I was surprised by that quick a turnaround. I thought it would at least have been a day or so, which is why I declined to even respond to it. Shouldn't have been surprised, but in all honesty, I was.

If anyone else had rolled out that kind of olive branch, I would have responded, but I know Vince well enough to know what a pile of horse manure his olive branches are. Someone who lives to flex nuts behind a computer screen and start flame wars with folks isn't going to be sincere in that regard.

funny thing is you took my comment as an olive branch. ;-)  And if you think me to be someone who hides behind the anonimity of a message board then you are even dumber than I thought.  My invitation was for you to come down here where YOU cannot hide  behind the anonimity of a screen name

VinBucFan

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« #144 : August 25, 2012, 01:04:08 AM »

An embryo functions in the same way as a malignant tumor. From a scientific standpoint, it is as alive as the tumor is. Not from your personal moral standpoint, not from your personal religious beliefs, but from a scientific one.

If you consider an embryo to be alive and a tumor to not be alive, then so be it, but don't use science as the justification for it. Don't act as though science supports your inclination to want to have your personal morality or religious beliefs put into law. That was the sole purpose of the comparison, and one that was clearly lost in all the reactionary, emotion driven vitriol.

^^^^^^^^^Ridiculous stupidity and classic "black hole" circular text.  The distinction is obvious to anyone but an idiot.  Anyway, I posted it before, but since you keep typing that an embryo is only "alive" ( i.e. human") from a personal religious standpoint, here's a lot of non-religious, some might be "scientifc," types who disagree (interesting to watch CBW, a "disciple" of the written word, ignore written words that don't suit his point of view):

"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]


"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]


"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]


"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."
[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]


"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]


"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."
[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]


"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]


"The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."
[Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]


"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]



"The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]


"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
[O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]


"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."
[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]


I thought you were done. Can't help yourself, can you? And here I thought we were going to meet at a Bucs game and become best buds and all...  ::)

So this is all interesting stuff. Now find me the text on how cancer cells function, and point out the differences to me. I'll wait.

This ^^^ comment in bold is vintage CBW.  As you know (but try to deflect) I did not post the quotes for  "how cancer cell functions" or for the comparison between an embryo and a tumor.  I posted the quotes because YOU have said TWICE that the notion that life begins at conception is a religious concept and NOT a scientific concept. That is FALSE, as I illustrated, but rather than just admit you are wrong, you do the intellectually dishonest two-step and try to change the subject.
« : August 25, 2012, 01:09:44 AM VinBucFan »

CBWx2

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« #145 : August 25, 2012, 10:21:12 AM »

funny thing is you took my comment as an olive branch. ;-)  And if you think me to be someone who hides behind the anonimity of a message board then you are even dumber than I thought.  My invitation was for you to come down here where YOU cannot hide  behind the anonimity of a screen name

Ah I see. You were challenging me to a fight. How many posters does that make for you challenging to a fight, Vince? How freaking old are you anyway? The more you post, the more of a pathetic loser you look like. I'm a grown ass man. I'm not gonna meet you in the school yard at 4:00 for a scrap.

Here's some advice, Vince. Not everybody is going to see the world as you do, so I would suggest that at some point you put your big boy pants on and stop challenging everyone who disagrees with you to a physical altercation. One day, someone might just take you up on it, and it might not work out the way you think it will. But I suppose that's what stand your ground is for, huh Vince?

As you know (but try to deflect) I did not post the quotes for  "how cancer cell functions" or for the comparison between an embryo and a tumor.  I posted the quotes because YOU have said TWICE that the notion that life begins at conception is a religious concept and NOT a scientific concept. That is FALSE, as I illustrated, but rather than just admit you are wrong, you do the intellectually dishonest two-step and try to change the subject.

The reason I deflected ignored you post was because it was a joke, and anyone with half a freaking brain can see that. How many of the quotes you posted actually pinpoint where life begins? How many define the moment that a fully realized human life exists?
« : August 25, 2012, 10:34:38 AM CBWx2 »


olafberserker

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« #146 : August 25, 2012, 10:33:25 AM »


 I'm a grown ass man. I'm not gonna meet you in the school yard at 4:00 for a scrap.


You just call other guys names on a message board, huh spanky?   lol


CBWx2

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« #147 : August 25, 2012, 10:35:16 AM »


 I'm a grown ass man. I'm not gonna meet you in the school yard at 4:00 for a scrap.


You just call other guys names on a message board, huh spanky?   lol

Yup. And so do you.


olafberserker

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« #148 : August 25, 2012, 10:41:22 AM »


 I'm a grown ass man. I'm not gonna meet you in the school yard at 4:00 for a scrap.


You just call other guys names on a message board, huh spanky?   lol

Yup. And so do you.

Oh, another "grown ass man" response.  What's next "sticks and stones ....."?

olafberserker

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« #149 : August 25, 2012, 10:42:22 AM »

How many times are you going to edit that post?  Looking for just the right way to keep it going around in circles, eh spanky?
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