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Chief Joseph

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#60 : August 23, 2012, 03:02:22 PM


You're pretending to be stupid again.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

Kelly Thomas

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#61 : August 23, 2012, 03:06:08 PM

If not for religiosity then it would not be an issue.

Hate to say it, but abortion (as horrible as it is) is strictly a private choice.

Don't let false precepts cloud your view.

spartan

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#62 : August 23, 2012, 03:07:33 PM

I get what you are trying to say Illum, but you really are splitting hairs. If you support someone's right to choose to have an abortion you also support their right to have an abortion. If you support someones right to have an abortion you therefore support the procedures that are used to abort the baby. One comes with the other. Without the procedure you don't have the choice.

spartan

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#63 : August 23, 2012, 03:10:36 PM

If not for religiosity then it would not be an issue.

Hate to say it, but abortion (as horrible as it is) is strictly a private choice.

Don't let false precepts cloud your view.

Disagree. All major civilizations have agreed acts such as rape, murder, theft etc are evil acts and have taken steps to stop them. Religion has nothing to do with it other than they tend to agree.

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#64 : August 23, 2012, 03:13:00 PM


You're pretending to be stupid again.

To think, all this because the term "Pro-Abortion" threw you off.


Kelly Thomas

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#65 : August 23, 2012, 03:14:28 PM


You're pretending to be stupid again.

To think, all this because the term "Pro-Abortion" threw you off.

I shouldn't laugh but couldn't help myself.

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#66 : August 23, 2012, 03:16:18 PM

Hate to say it, but abortion (as horrible as it is) is strictly a private choice.

That's the argument that is put forth, but it doesn't hold water to those that say that "choice" is the killing the an unborn baby.


Kelly Thomas

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#67 : August 23, 2012, 03:22:49 PM

Hate to say it, but abortion (as horrible as it is) is strictly a private choice.

That's the argument that is put forth, but it doesn't hold water to those that say that "choice" is the killing the an unborn baby.

You and I are coming from this at opposite angles and as such will never agree.

You are as stone cold on this as I am.

I say you are suffering from a religious hangover.

No disrespect.



Chief Joseph

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#68 : August 23, 2012, 03:30:41 PM

I get what you are trying to say Illum, but you really are splitting hairs. If you support someone's right to choose to have an abortion you also support their right to have an abortion. If you support someones right to have an abortion you therefore support the procedures that are used to abort the baby. One comes with the other. Without the procedure you don't have the choice.

To clarify, I consider abortion to be morally wrong. If someone wants to have an abortion, I disagree with their choice. But it is their choice, and it is their sin. But if I were to force my beliefs on them, that would be my sin. Make sense to you?

Tell me something, if we took a million unwed women every year and forced them to raise children they didn't want, would our society be improved?

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

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#69 : August 23, 2012, 03:32:59 PM

I say you are suffering from a religious hangover.

No disrespect.

None taken, but I would disagree with you on the religious aspect.  There have been plenty of cultures throughout time where murder was a crime, whether that culture was religious or not.  To the Anti-Abortion crowd, abortion is murder of an unborn baby, not a woman exercising her right to do whatever she wants to her body.

The whole "woman's choice" cry has never made much sense to me, for a myriad of reasons.  Women (and men) have to live with the choices they make, good and bad.  And putting yourself in a position to get pregnant is a choice.


Chief Joseph

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#70 : August 23, 2012, 03:33:11 PM


You're pretending to be stupid again.

To think, all this because the term "Pro-Abortion" threw you off.

Threw me off? Hardly. More like I saw right through your BS.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.

spartan

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#71 : August 23, 2012, 03:43:45 PM

I get what you are trying to say Illum, but you really are splitting hairs. If you support someone's right to choose to have an abortion you also support their right to have an abortion. If you support someones right to have an abortion you therefore support the procedures that are used to abort the baby. One comes with the other. Without the procedure you don't have the choice.

To clarify, I consider abortion to be morally wrong. If someone wants to have an abortion, I disagree with their choice. But it is their choice, and it is their sin. But if I were to force my beliefs on them, that would be my sin. Make sense to you?

Tell me something, if we took a million unwed women every year and forced them to raise children they didn't want, would our society be improved?

To be honest I think it would be one of those decisions that would have a short term hangover but long term benefits. Yes, in the short term there would be a burst of babies but in the long term I think people might be a lot less laxadaisical in their sexual habits. Especially if it went hand in hand with some serious welfare reform.

I understand your viewpoint and I hold a similar one on a multitude of subjects, but when it comes to something as immoral as this, I find no justification worthy. I am personally totally against abortion as a means of birth control. I um and ah about some of the exceptions but console myself with the excuse that I can cross that bridge if it ever becomes a proper issue. i.e. some legislation is presented where that needs to be seriously addressed.

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#72 : August 23, 2012, 03:59:51 PM

I say you are suffering from a religious hangover.

No disrespect.

None taken, but I would disagree with you on the religious aspect.  There have been plenty of cultures throughout time where murder was a crime, whether that culture was religious or not.  To the Anti-Abortion crowd, abortion is murder of an unborn baby, not a woman exercising her right to do whatever she wants to her body.

Except this isn't a discussion about murder, it's a discussion about abortion. The first recorded cases of induced abortions date back to ancient Egyptian and ancient Greek times, and it had been a part of many civilized cultures for much of antiquity, cultures that did not see it as murder. The concept of seeing abortion as murder lies in when one views life as beginning, and for most ancient cultures, life began at birth. Modern religion is what fuels the notion that life begins at conception, therefor religion is what fuels the notion that abortion is murder, therefor those who argue that abortion is murder are suffering from a religious hangover.

On a side note, since abortion is murder to you, do you support implementing a law that would send those who receive them to prison for life without the possibility of parole, or perhaps even sentenced to death? It's poop or get off the pot time. If abortion is murder, then should those who perform and receive abortions be treated as 1st degree murderers?

The whole "woman's choice" cry has never made much sense to me, for a myriad of reasons.  Women (and men) have to live with the choices they make, good and bad.  And putting yourself in a position to get pregnant is a choice.

Yes, and in your eyes, forcing them to have the baby is a penance for that choice. Some would argue, however, that a baby shouldn't be used as a form of punishment for a wrong decision.
: August 23, 2012, 04:06:44 PM CBWx2


Kelly Thomas

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#73 : August 23, 2012, 04:05:17 PM

I say you are suffering from a religious hangover.

No disrespect.

None taken, but I would disagree with you on the religious aspect.  There have been plenty of cultures throughout time where murder was a crime, whether that culture was religious or not.  To the Anti-Abortion crowd, abortion is murder of an unborn baby, not a woman exercising her right to do whatever she wants to her body.

The whole "woman's choice" cry has never made much sense to me, for a myriad of reasons.  Women (and men) have to live with the choices they make, good and bad.  And putting yourself in a position to get pregnant is a choice.

We are all biologically driven to pro create.

Just because that's true doesn't mean other choices are negated.

But, I'm not sure if you're are making a moral argument or a political argument, here.

Chief Joseph

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#74 : August 23, 2012, 04:07:27 PM


I've a few more questions for you then:
Is it immoral to let someone already born starve to death? Because it happens every day. Twenty Five thousand times a day. And like it or not, less abortion equals more starvation. The vast majority of abortions are in third world countries.

What about birth control? Is it moral to deny someone the means of preventing an unwanted pregnancy?

And sex education? I wonder what percentage of pro-lifers believe women should have no knowledge on how to prevent pregnancy, no access to any means of doing so, and no choice as to what can be done about it.

I find that immoral.

Illuminator is a good poster. He sticks to his guns and makes good points. Some don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t like that.
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