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Biggs3535

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« #120 : August 24, 2012, 09:41:35 AM »

So should all women who have received abortions and doctors who have performed them be tried and convicted of murder in the 1st degree? You never answered that question.

I didn't answer it because it's kind of a silly question, but the answer is clearly "no".  Why would anyone be tried and convicted of anything that is currently legal?


olafberserker

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« #121 : August 24, 2012, 10:06:25 AM »

Except the comparison really doesn't work for an abortion debate.  And what something has the potential to become is pretty important to why one should be removed and why the other probably shouldn't.

spartan

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« #122 : August 24, 2012, 02:03:47 PM »

Chimpanzee's share 99% of the same genetic make up as a human. The one big difference is that one is a chimpanzee and the other clearly is not. :)  Just sayin'

VinBucFan

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« #123 : August 24, 2012, 02:04:56 PM »

That is the type of **CENSORED** azz response I expected.  Like I said, even if you could find some lame article make a comparison of genetic material or composition, its the comparison in the context of an abortion debate -- which is all you, not some researcher ---  that makes you a total **CENSORED**ing idiot d-o-u-c-h-e.  You are by far the biggest idiot on these boards.  As someone who has two children (and who lost a first pre-birth), you deserve to have you azz kicked seven ways to sundown for making that comparison  you useless piece of sh-e-e-t.  Only a **CENSORED**ing idiot would type something that dumb. Hence, you are an idiot.

The comparison in the context of an abortion debate was made to illustrate a point. The fact that you disagree with the point doesn't make it not valid. I know in your pathetic, narcissistic, pea-brain you might believe otherwise, just like you probably think tossing out your family history is suppose to mean something in the context of this discussion. You think you are the only person contributing to this discussion that has kids? You think that because you lost a child prior to birth that it makes you some kind of expert on the subject of when life begins? The fact that you would even use that as some sort of leverage for the purposes of this discussion speaks to your character, quite frankly.

FYI, I happen to have two daughters, and my wife, who is the one who pointed out to me the similarities of embryos and cancer cells due to research she had done for a paper in college, suffered through a miscarriage herself in a previous marriage. Not that any of that is your business, nor does any of it pertain to the topic that is being discussed, but I just thought I'd point it out to you to show you how much of a presumptuous jackass you are.

Spartan and others: no need to lock the thread on my account. I am done with the conversation. I've said my part, except to invite CBW to come down to a Buc game or a G2G some time. CBW, you have an open invite and I will be your host :-)



CBWx2

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« #124 : August 24, 2012, 03:06:25 PM »

So should all women who have received abortions and doctors who have performed them be tried and convicted of murder in the 1st degree? You never answered that question.

I didn't answer it because it's kind of a silly question, but the answer is clearly "no".  Why would anyone be tried and convicted of anything that is currently legal?

That's  dodging the question. I didn't ask you what would happen, I asked you what you would want to have happen. Clearly, you want abortion to be banned on the grounds that it is murder. So say it is. How do you enforce it? Is it murder 1 for the young mother that goes the back alley route, or that makes the trip down to Mexico or up to Canada?

Except the comparison really doesn't work for an abortion debate.  And what something has the potential to become is pretty important to why one should be removed and why the other probably shouldn't.

That wasn't the debate. The debate was "is abortion murder." In order for abortion to be murder, then that must mean that an embryo is alive. You can't kill something that isn't alive. An embryo functions in the same way as a malignant tumor. From a scientific standpoint, it is as alive as the tumor is. Not from your personal moral standpoint, not from your personal religious beliefs, but from a scientific one.

If you consider an embryo to be alive and a tumor to not be alive, then so be it, but don't use science as the justification for it. Don't act as though science supports your inclination to want to have your personal morality or religious beliefs put into law. That was the sole purpose of the comparison, and one that was clearly lost in all the reactionary, emotion driven vitriol.


olafberserker

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« #125 : August 24, 2012, 03:50:38 PM »

 ???

spartan

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« #126 : August 24, 2012, 03:51:42 PM »


That wasn't the debate. The debate was "is abortion murder." In order for abortion to be murder, then that must mean that an embryo is alive. You can't kill something that isn't alive. An embryo functions in the same way as a malignant tumor. From a scientific standpoint, it is as alive as the tumor is. Not from your personal moral standpoint, not from your personal religious beliefs, but from a scientific one.

If you consider an embryo to be alive and a tumor to not be alive, then so be it, but don't use science as the justification for it. Don't act as though science supports your inclination to want to have your personal morality or religious beliefs put into law. That was the sole purpose of the comparison, and one that was clearly lost in all the reactionary, emotion driven vitriol.

This sounds like you're saying that it is a baby, and therefore "murderable"  the moment it becomes viable. Is that correct?

VinBucFan

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« #127 : August 24, 2012, 03:54:33 PM »

An embryo functions in the same way as a malignant tumor. From a scientific standpoint, it is as alive as the tumor is. Not from your personal moral standpoint, not from your personal religious beliefs, but from a scientific one.

If you consider an embryo to be alive and a tumor to not be alive, then so be it, but don't use science as the justification for it. Don't act as though science supports your inclination to want to have your personal morality or religious beliefs put into law. That was the sole purpose of the comparison, and one that was clearly lost in all the reactionary, emotion driven vitriol.

^^^^^^^^^Ridiculous stupidity and classic "black hole" circular text.  The distinction is obvious to anyone but an idiot.  Anyway, I posted it before, but since you keep typing that an embryo is only "alive" ( i.e. human") from a personal religious standpoint, here's a lot of non-religious, some might be "scientifc," types who disagree (interesting to watch CBW, a "disciple" of the written word, ignore written words that don't suit his point of view):

"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]


"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]


"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]


"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."
[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]


"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]


"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."
[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]


"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]


"The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."
[Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]


"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]



"The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]


"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
[O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]


"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."
[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]


VinBucFan

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« #128 : August 24, 2012, 03:55:14 PM »

???


+ 1,0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

(Have to confess, it is funny though watching people attempt to have a discussion with CBW . . . . . around and around he goes and where he'll stop nobody knows . . .)
« : August 24, 2012, 03:57:04 PM VinBucFan »


CBWx2

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« #129 : August 24, 2012, 04:04:38 PM »

An embryo functions in the same way as a malignant tumor. From a scientific standpoint, it is as alive as the tumor is. Not from your personal moral standpoint, not from your personal religious beliefs, but from a scientific one.

If you consider an embryo to be alive and a tumor to not be alive, then so be it, but don't use science as the justification for it. Don't act as though science supports your inclination to want to have your personal morality or religious beliefs put into law. That was the sole purpose of the comparison, and one that was clearly lost in all the reactionary, emotion driven vitriol.

^^^^^^^^^Ridiculous stupidity and classic "black hole" circular text.  The distinction is obvious to anyone but an idiot.  Anyway, I posted it before, but since you keep typing that an embryo is only "alive" ( i.e. human") from a personal religious standpoint, here's a lot of non-religious, some might be "scientifc," types who disagree (interesting to watch CBW, a "disciple" of the written word, ignore written words that don't suit his point of view):

"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]


"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]


"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]


"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."
[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]


"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]


"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."
[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]


"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]


"The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."
[Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]


"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]



"The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]


"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
[O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]


"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."
[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]


I thought you were done. Can't help yourself, can you? And here I thought we were going to meet at a Bucs game and become best buds and all...  ::)

So this is all interesting stuff. Now find me the text on how cancer cells function, and point out the differences to me. I'll wait.


Kelly Thomas

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« #130 : August 24, 2012, 04:15:59 PM »

And here I thought we were going to meet at a Bucs game and become best buds and all...  ::)


Hahahahha!

I knew that was going to come up at some point.

CBWx2

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« #131 : August 24, 2012, 04:20:19 PM »

And here I thought we were going to meet at a Bucs game and become best buds and all...  ::)


Hahahahha!

I knew that was going to come up at some point.

Did you think it would be in less than two hours? Have to admit, even I was surprised by that quick a turnaround. I thought it would at least have been a day or so, which is why I declined to even respond to it. Shouldn't have been surprised, but in all honesty, I was.

If anyone else had rolled out that kind of olive branch, I would have responded, but I know Vince well enough to know what a pile of horse manure his olive branches are. Someone who lives to flex nuts behind a computer screen and start flame wars with folks isn't going to be sincere in that regard.
« : August 24, 2012, 04:23:33 PM CBWx2 »


spartan

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« #132 : August 24, 2012, 04:26:57 PM »

Now find me the text on how cancer cells function, and point out the differences to me. I'll wait.

Cancer cells kill you and babies don't? Usually anyway. After they are born, now that's a different question!

CBWx2

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« #133 : August 24, 2012, 04:28:42 PM »

Now find me the text on how cancer cells function, and point out the differences to me. I'll wait.

Cancer cells kill you and babies don't? Usually anyway. After they are born, now that's a different question!

So because human embryos don't kill you, usually anyway, that means that they are alive?


olafberserker

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« #134 : August 24, 2012, 04:35:34 PM »

wheels on the bus go round and round ......
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