The Official 2012 Presidential Election Obama v. Romney Thread

[spartan]

Find me one example of how the GOP "hates" women.

This is when you know you've hit rock bottom.

'splain please.

[dbucfan]

She had my attention up until the "we are the last hope of the world" BS.

 

And the BS portion of that is ......

Let's just say it takes some..audacity..to claim that either the Republican party...or the U.S. are the "last hope of the world".

I vehemently disagree with that train of thought. Neither entity can "save" the world.

No problem.  I was just wondering if you had expanded thought.  The chopped phrase is from Reagan - who offered "America is the last best hope for freedom" and it does make more sense than leaving it dangling...

[Durango 95]

Find me one example of how the GOP "hates" women.

This is when you know you've hit rock bottom.

'splain please.

it could never be a starting point when trying to effectuate an image of equality and shedding negative stereotypes.

It's not a personal comment on  Cyberdude, just a political stereotype, w/ a tinge of humor, for me.

Surely you see that.

[spartan]

Find me one example of how the GOP "hates" women.

This is when you know you've hit rock bottom.

'splain please.

it could never be a starting point when trying to effectuate an image of equality and shedding negative stereotypes.

It's not a personal comment on  Cyberdude, just a political stereotype, w/ a tinge of humor, for me.

Surely you see that.

i just didn't understand what you were getting at that's all.

[Durango 95]

Find me one example of how the GOP "hates" women.

This is when you know you've hit rock bottom.

'splain please.

it could never be a starting point when trying to effectuate an image of equality and shedding negative stereotypes.

It's not a personal comment on  Cyberdude, just a political stereotype, w/ a tinge of humor, for me.

Surely you see that.

i just didn't understand what you were getting at that's all.

That's because when given a choice I inexplicably take the long way around the mountain...

[Morgan]

August 30, 2012

NYT
In Ryan Critique of Obama, Omissions Help Make the Case
By MICHAEL COOPER

In his speech accepting the Republican nomination for vice president at the Republican National Convention, Representative Paul D. Ryan criticized President Obama for seeking Medicare cuts that he once sought as well, and for failing to act on a deficit-reduction plan that he too opposed.

Mr. Ryan, whose own plan to reshape Medicare has proved unpopular with voters, criticized Mr. Obama for moving to cut $716 billion from the expected future growth of Medicare — cuts that Mr. Ryan himself once counted on in his budget, but that his running mate, Mitt Romney, says he would restore.

Mr. Ryan also criticized the president as failing to act on the recommendations of the bipartisan debt commission that Mr. Obama had created. “They came back with an urgent report,” he said in his speech Wednesday in Tampa, Fla. “He thanked them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing.”

That appeared to be a reference to the Simpson-Bowles commission — which Mr. Ryan served on, but whose plan he ultimately opposed, saying it would raise taxes and not cut enough from health programs.

And in an extended critique of the president’s stimulus plan, Mr. Ryan said: “What did taxpayers get out of the Obama stimulus? More debt.” He did not mention that a third of the stimulus was in the form of tax cuts.

On G.M. Plant Closing, a Question of Timing

At one point in the speech, Mr. Ryan seemed to fault President Obama for the shuttering of a General Motors plant in his hometown, Janesville, Wis., but the plant was slated for closing before Mr. Obama took office.

Mr. Ryan said in his speech that Mr. Obama had visited the plant in 2008 and told people that “I believe that if our government is there to support you, this plant will be here for another hundred years.”

“Well, as it turned out,” Mr. Ryan said, “that plant didn’t last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day.”

It was February of 2008 when Mr. Obama held a campaign event at the plant — a day after General Motors had posted a $38 billion loss. He gave a speech on economic policy.

By that October — a month before the election — General Motors had already made plans to close the Janesville plant because of the steep falloff in the sale of sport utility vehicles.

An article on the plant in The New York Times that month said: “On Oct. 13, G.M. announced that its 90-year-old plant there, the company’s oldest factory in the United States, would build its last S.U.V. just before the Christmas holidays.”

“Just a year ago, the Janesville plant was churning out 20,000 Suburbans, Yukons and Tahoes each month,” the article said. “As the assembly lines wind down, the plant is now producing less than 100 S.U.V.’s a day. Only 1,200 employees remain from a work force that once numbered 5,000, and the end is drawing near.”


http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/30/in-ryan-critique-of-obama-omissions-help-make-the-case/?smid=FB-nytimes&WT.mc_id=PO-E-FB-SM-LIN-IRC-083012-NYT-NA&WT.mc_ev=click

   

[Morgan]

Mystery speaker hyped for days before the RNC. Ends up being Clinit Eastwood. Me? I thought it was going to be Tim Tebow.

[dbucfan]

August 30, 2012

NYT
In Ryan Critique of Obama, Omissions Help Make the Case
By MICHAEL COOPER

In his speech accepting the Republican nomination for vice president at the Republican National Convention, Representative Paul D. Ryan criticized President Obama for seeking Medicare cuts that he once sought as well, and for failing to act on a deficit-reduction plan that he too opposed.

Mr. Ryan, whose own plan to reshape Medicare has proved unpopular with voters, criticized Mr. Obama for moving to cut $716 billion from the expected future growth of Medicare — cuts that Mr. Ryan himself once counted on in his budget, but that his running mate, Mitt Romney, says he would restore.

Mr. Ryan also criticized the president as failing to act on the recommendations of the bipartisan debt commission that Mr. Obama had created. “They came back with an urgent report,” he said in his speech Wednesday in Tampa, Fla. “He thanked them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing.”

That appeared to be a reference to the Simpson-Bowles commission — which Mr. Ryan served on, but whose plan he ultimately opposed, saying it would raise taxes and not cut enough from health programs.

And in an extended critique of the president’s stimulus plan, Mr. Ryan said: “What did taxpayers get out of the Obama stimulus? More debt.” He did not mention that a third of the stimulus was in the form of tax cuts.

On G.M. Plant Closing, a Question of Timing

At one point in the speech, Mr. Ryan seemed to fault President Obama for the shuttering of a General Motors plant in his hometown, Janesville, Wis., but the plant was slated for closing before Mr. Obama took office.

Mr. Ryan said in his speech that Mr. Obama had visited the plant in 2008 and told people that “I believe that if our government is there to support you, this plant will be here for another hundred years.”

“Well, as it turned out,” Mr. Ryan said, “that plant didn’t last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day.”

It was February of 2008 when Mr. Obama held a campaign event at the plant — a day after General Motors had posted a $38 billion loss. He gave a speech on economic policy.

By that October — a month before the election — General Motors had already made plans to close the Janesville plant because of the steep falloff in the sale of sport utility vehicles.

An article on the plant in The New York Times that month said: “On Oct. 13, G.M. announced that its 90-year-old plant there, the company’s oldest factory in the United States, would build its last S.U.V. just before the Christmas holidays.”

“Just a year ago, the Janesville plant was churning out 20,000 Suburbans, Yukons and Tahoes each month,” the article said. “As the assembly lines wind down, the plant is now producing less than 100 S.U.V.’s a day. Only 1,200 employees remain from a work force that once numbered 5,000, and the end is drawing near.”


http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/30/in-ryan-critique-of-obama-omissions-help-make-the-case/?smid=FB-nytimes&WT.mc_id=PO-E-FB-SM-LIN-IRC-083012-NYT-NA&WT.mc_ev=click

 

Here it is explained so perhaps you can figure out who you wanted to mock, and who was wrong. 

http://www.humanevents.com/2012/08/30/the-saga-of-the-janesville-plant/

[Morgan]

What you see as mocking, I see as exposing discrepancies between what Ryan says and what the appears to be the truth.

[dbucfan]

What you see as mocking, I see as exposing discrepancies between what Ryan says and what the appears to be the truth.

Perhaps reading the blogs from the NY times would be a benefit to you.  Finding the truth there is really a task - as in this farcical attempt to show discrepancy. 

[dbucfan]

Hmm

seems a lot of folks are pretty sure of Ryan being truthful - and honest - in the instance at least


Politifact Lies About Paul Ryan and the Janesville GM Plant

Stephen Gutowski
Thursday, August 30, 2012 - 11:25am


Last night Politifact Wisconsin issued one of the least factual and most skewed "fact checks" I've ever seen. Not only do they bend over backwards to provide cover to one of the most impotent promises President Obama ever made, they also simply lie about the key facts they use to label Paul Ryan's claim false. Here is Politifact's ruling:

Ryan said Obama broke his promise to keep a Wisconsin GM plant from closing. But we don't see evidence he explicitly made such a promise -- and more importantly, the Janesville plant shut down before he took office.

We rate Ryan's statement False.

Let's start with what Obama said and see if any reasonable human being who isn't simply shilling for the President could possibly reach the same conclusion as Politifact:

I know that General Motors received some bad news yesterday, and I know how hard your Governor has fought to keep jobs in this plant.  But I also know how much progress you’ve made – how many hybrids and fuel-efficient vehicles you’re churning out.  And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years.  The question is not whether a clean energy economy is in our future, it’s where it will thrive.  I want it to thrive right here in the United States of America; right here in Wisconsin; and that’s the future I’ll fight for as your President.

So, President Obama went to the Janesville GM plant and told them that if the policies he supports were enacted, the plant would "be here for another hundred years". If a presidential candidate comes to your plant and tells you the execution of his policies will keep it open for another hundred years that's a promise or a guarentee or whatever you want. However, it most certainly isn't meaningless as Politifact would like us all to believe.

And, of course, President Obama's policies were enacted but the Janesville GM plant didn't even survive through all of 2009. Instead, it shut down on April 23rd 2009. Which brings me to the next point. Politifact is just plain lying about when the Jainsville plant closed.

They claim it "effectively" closed in December of 2008. That's simply false. While the SUV line in the plant was shut down in December of 2008 the plant's truck line remained up and running until April 23rd 2009.

There's just no way around that. Throwing in a weasel word like "effectively" doesn't change anything. The simple fact is that closed factories don't build trucks.

So, there you have it. President Obama promised the Janesville GM plant would go on building for a hundred years but even after the government bought GM and Obama came into office the plant shut down. That's the reality of the situation whether the liberals at Politifact like it or not.

[The Anti-Java]

Hmm

seems a lot of folks are pretty sure of Ryan being truthful - and honest - in the instance at least


Politifact Lies About Paul Ryan and the Janesville GM Plant

Stephen Gutowski
Thursday, August 30, 2012 - 11:25am


Last night Politifact Wisconsin issued one of the least factual and most skewed "fact checks" I've ever seen. Not only do they bend over backwards to provide cover to one of the most impotent promises President Obama ever made, they also simply lie about the key facts they use to label Paul Ryan's claim false. Here is Politifact's ruling:

Ryan said Obama broke his promise to keep a Wisconsin GM plant from closing. But we don't see evidence he explicitly made such a promise -- and more importantly, the Janesville plant shut down before he took office.

We rate Ryan's statement False.

Let's start with what Obama said and see if any reasonable human being who isn't simply shilling for the President could possibly reach the same conclusion as Politifact:

I know that General Motors received some bad news yesterday, and I know how hard your Governor has fought to keep jobs in this plant.  But I also know how much progress you’ve made – how many hybrids and fuel-efficient vehicles you’re churning out.  And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years.  The question is not whether a clean energy economy is in our future, it’s where it will thrive.  I want it to thrive right here in the United States of America; right here in Wisconsin; and that’s the future I’ll fight for as your President.

So, President Obama went to the Janesville GM plant and told them that if the policies he supports were enacted, the plant would "be here for another hundred years". If a presidential candidate comes to your plant and tells you the execution of his policies will keep it open for another hundred years that's a promise or a guarentee or whatever you want. However, it most certainly isn't meaningless as Politifact would like us all to believe.

And, of course, President Obama's policies were enacted but the Janesville GM plant didn't even survive through all of 2009. Instead, it shut down on April 23rd 2009. Which brings me to the next point. Politifact is just plain lying about when the Jainsville plant closed.

They claim it "effectively" closed in December of 2008. That's simply false. While the SUV line in the plant was shut down in December of 2008 the plant's truck line remained up and running until April 23rd 2009.

There's just no way around that. Throwing in a weasel word like "effectively" doesn't change anything. The simple fact is that closed factories don't build trucks.

So, there you have it. President Obama promised the Janesville GM plant would go on building for a hundred years but even after the government bought GM and Obama came into office the plant shut down. That's the reality of the situation whether the liberals at Politifact like it or not.

Good stuff.

[CBWx2]

Obama could not have saved Janesville GM plant. It closed before he took office.

Last night Paul Ryan said that Obama failed to save a GM plant in Janesville, Wis. Many outlets — including Wonkblog — said that was a lie. But some conservatives have tried to salvage the claim. Jonathan Adler of the National Review asks, “What was ‘false’ in Ryan’s statement? Was Janesvile ‘about to lose’ the factory at the time of the election? Yes. Did Obama fail to prevent this as he had promised? Yes.”

Let’s break down, then, the exact chronology of the Janesville plant closing; Conn Carroll of the Washington Examiner has helpfully posted one here, which I add to below. The basic takeaway, however, is this: by December 2008, the plant had reached a point of no return where the plant would be shut down regardless of federal action. Ryan was faulting Obama for an that was event that was inevitable over a month before he took office.

February 2008: At a campaign stop in Janesville, Obama says, ”I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years.” As Politifact writes, “That’s a statement of belief that, with government help, the Janesville plant could remain open — but not a promise to keep it open.”

June 3, 2008 – GM decides to close the Janesville plant, announcing that production will end by 2010, after months of rumors it might close. The press release declares, “Janesville, Wisconsin, will cease production of medium-duty trucks by the end of 2009, and of the Tahoe, Suburban and Yukon in 2010, or sooner.” Senators Herb Kohl and Russ Feingold, both Democrats, and Paul Ryan, whose House district includes Janesville, write the company urging it to reverse the decision.

September 2008 – Paul Ryan flies to Detroit to urge GM to reconsider its decision to close the plant. According to the Los Angeles Times, he pitched “a $224-million proposal that included roughly $50 million in state enterprise zone tax credits, local government grants worth $22 million and major contract concessions from the United Auto Workers union local.” Throughout, Ryan frequently speaks with GM chief Rick Wagoner.

Oct. 11, 2008 – Barack Obama comments on the Janesville closing. He does not promise to prevent the closing-in-progress, but instead declares he will “retool plants like the GM facility in Janesville” (emphasis mine) as president. Regardless of one’s views of the auto bailout, it has saved facilities like the Janesville one, if not the Janesville one in particular.

November/December 2008 – Congress weighs a bailout of GM and other automakers. One proposal, backed by Ryan and 31 other House Republicans, but not Mitt Romney, would have provided $15 billion in bridge loans. The bill passed the house but was not picked up by the Senate. The Bush administration declines to use TARP funds to rescue automakers, but approves a bridge loan on Dec.19, too late to save the Janesville plant.

Dec. 23, 2008 – Lacking a bailout, the plant closes. The plant holds a “final goodbye ceremony” as it builds its last SUV. In a statement to MSNBC, GM confirmed that the plant “was idled” in December. But — and this is where it gets confusing — winding down a plant takes time.

April 21, 2009 – The Janesville plant builds its last medium-duty truck and shuts down its last assembly line, completing the shutdown process started in June 2008.

In short, the Janesville shutdown commenced in June 2008. Once it was clear that aid wasn’t forthcoming in November, actual assembly lines were being shut down by December. It is true that Paul Ryan tried to get the Obama administration to save another plant, in Kenosha, which the Obama administration failed to do. Attacking Obama for that is fair. But hitting him for Janesville is dishonest. The first assembly line stopped rolling in December 2008. Workers unfurled banners declaring the “Last Vehicles Off the Janesville Line” at a “final goodbye ceremony,” The plant was closing regardless of what Obama did.

This is a very strange dispute, in a way. Mitt Romney wrote an op-ed in the New York Times under the title “Let Detroit Go Bankrupt,” and now his campaign is trying hard to fault Obama for not bailing out automakers aggressively enough. Not only that, but after the campaign’s repeated denunciation of the Obama administration for “picking winners,” Ryan is faulting Obama for not “picking a winner” not just among companies, but among plants. He’s attacking Obama for not using the government to micromanage GM’s affairs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/08/30/obama-could-not-have-saved-janesville-gm-plant-it-closed-before-he-took-office/

[dbucfan]

Erza is trying reconcile two entirely different topics and that won't work-imvho.  Romney's article was a description of how he would have overseen the bankruptcy - as you know the handling was ... well it created winners as opposed to following bankruptcy law.  Ryan's point is simply Obama's word didn't match up with the outcome.   

[CBWx2]

Erza is trying reconcile two entirely different topics and that won't work-imvho.  Romney's article was a description of how he would have overseen the bankruptcy - as you know the handling was ... well it created winners as opposed to following bankruptcy law.  Ryan's point is simply Obama's word didn't match up with the outcome.   

Ezra also did a pretty good job at explaining why Ryan's comments about the issue were misleading and dishonest. I also disagree that they are two entirely different topics. How do you attack the other guy for not doing something that you yourself swore you would not do? That's kinda like attacking the other guy for doing something that you yourself plan to do, like...say...faulting him for cutting Medicare when you yourself have proposed a plan to cut Medicare for the same amount. Oh...wait...