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Pewterman

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#90 : September 05, 2012, 04:06:50 PM

Speaking as a long time Buc fan I desperately want Freeman to succeed, and I can see where he does have the talent to do so ....but I've sat through Jack Thompson, Jerry Goldstein, Vinny Testeverde, Chris Chandler, Craig Erickson, Trent Dilfer, Shaun King, Chris Simms, and Bruce Gronkoski (sp?) to temper any excitement I have for our QB ...at one point or another all those QB's burned us with flashes of looking good only to fall back to mediocre mode.  And that doesn't even include all the QB's that have played a game here or there for us.  So if we as Buc fan's are a little unsettled on Freeman after one good year followed up by one bad year ...lets face it that's in our DNA.

(FYI I know I left some names off of that list - Williams, DeBerg, Young, Johnson, etc ...but I feel those were actually good QB's for us when they were here).

None of those guys ever really did anything in Tampa with the exception of Johnson. Even then he rode a top 5 defense.. We have yet to have a historically monumental QB. I think we're cursed..

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#91 : September 05, 2012, 04:10:44 PM

A question I have for the Freeman doubters. Who did Freeman have last year as a weapon? K2?? Dude is on his way out of the league. Williams? Barely got open with the double teams. Benn? Was barely on the field. Who did he have at RB to dump the ball off to when the pressure came?? It was Graham and he did a fine job at it and even got us first downs like he is supposed to. Who did we have to replace him. Motha**CENSORED**in LUMPKIN! Yea hes the guy you want to dump the ball off to. Hes got the weapons now to at the very least have an average season. If he takes care of the ball he can really have a great season again. I think he can do it. GO BUCS!!

This has been addressed over and over again.  People rag on Alex Smith and think he's terrible yet, he hasn't had anything special to work with, plus he's had 6 different OC's in 7 years!  Eli has had mid / late round targets that are now Pro Bowlers.  Is that the GM's fault or is it that Eli is making them look that good?  Steve Smith in New York had a 100 catch season with Eli and hasn't done anything since he left.  What has Brees had?  First round bust Meachum... 7th round Colston, 7th round Moore?  Yet, he seems to be the best QB in the league.  Before Gronkowski, Brady never had anyone... yet he turned Deion Branch and Wes Welker into Pro Bowlers.  Good QB's make his teammates better.  That is a proven fact since the 60's.  Everyone in Tampa has regressed over the last 3 years to the point where most guys are no longer here!

Yes but you just named 3 future Hall of Famers. That's the difference. They're not just good. They're great. That's the difference between them and second tier players like Freeman, Flacco, and Ryan perhaps. And there are so many other factors that made those teams great. You can't base it solely on the QB-WR relationship. And Freeman until this year hasn't anything great to work with either just like Smith. They're in the same boat and both of them are not expected to run an offense. They need help from the Defense and Run game. Neither of which Josh had last year.

And to get those guys you better be picking in top 10 at the highest. Brees and Brady dont come around often. Lets stop treating Freeman like he needs to be superman. Hes not. He needs help just like Smith needs help. He got some this offseason. Lets see how he does.

Theoldbuc

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#92 : September 05, 2012, 05:01:59 PM

A question I have for the Freeman doubters. Who did Freeman have last year as a weapon? K2?? Dude is on his way out of the league. Williams? Barely got open with the double teams. Benn? Was barely on the field. Who did he have at RB to dump the ball off to when the pressure came?? It was Graham and he did a fine job at it and even got us first downs like he is supposed to. Who did we have to replace him. Motha**CENSORED**in LUMPKIN! Yea hes the guy you want to dump the ball off to. Hes got the weapons now to at the very least have an average season. If he takes care of the ball he can really have a great season again. I think he can do it. GO BUCS!!

This has been addressed over and over again.  People rag on Alex Smith and think he's terrible yet, he hasn't had anything special to work with, plus he's had 6 different OC's in 7 years!  Eli has had mid / late round targets that are now Pro Bowlers.  Is that the GM's fault or is it that Eli is making them look that good?  Steve Smith in New York had a 100 catch season with Eli and hasn't done anything since he left.  What has Brees had?  First round bust Meachum... 7th round Colston, 7th round Moore?  Yet, he seems to be the best QB in the league.  Before Gronkowski, Brady never had anyone... yet he turned Deion Branch and Wes Welker into Pro Bowlers.  Good QB's make his teammates better.  That is a proven fact since the 60's.  Everyone in Tampa has regressed over the last 3 years to the point where most guys are no longer here!


Here are the 3rd year numbers for Brady-Manning-Brees-Smith. Do really want to make the case that they were making teammates better, especially Brees? Maybe there are other factors that contribute to greatness and we don't know exactly what those things are. One thing is for sure, those who claim Freeman definitely doesn't have it, have no idea what they are talking about! But if you're a Bucs fan, you should at least hope for the guy in your colors to succeed!

Brady
2002 CMP   ATT   CMP%   YDS   AVG   TD   LNG   INT   FUM   QBR   RAT   
16   373   601   62.1   3,764   6.26   28   49   14   5   --   85.7

Manning
2006   
   301   522   57.7   3,244   6.22   24   55   18   7   --   77.0

Brees
2003   
   205   356   57.6   2,108   5.92   11   68   15   4   --   67.5

Smith
2007   
   94   193   48.7   914   4.74   2   45   4   6   --   57.2

TheChronicHotAir

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#93 : September 05, 2012, 06:03:05 PM

4th year.
HUGE regression last year.

Do great QBs regress like that after "getting it"??


JavaRay

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#94 : September 05, 2012, 06:08:32 PM

4th year.
HUGE regression last year.

Do great QBs regress like that after "getting it"??

Great QBs don't.   But QBs with off the field issues do.


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#95 : September 05, 2012, 06:10:43 PM

Think about this. He goes from Lumpkin to Martin. Martin can actually run the ball and can make plays catching it. Lumpkin didnt run well and didnt make plays when he caught the ball. How much does that help your QB out??

You guys are acting like BLOUNT wasn't on the team last year.



TBayXXXVII

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#96 : September 06, 2012, 08:39:56 AM


Here are the 3rd year numbers for Brady-Manning-Brees-Smith. Do really want to make the case that they were making teammates better, especially Brees? Maybe there are other factors that contribute to greatness and we don't know exactly what those things are. One thing is for sure, those who claim Freeman definitely doesn't have it, have no idea what they are talking about! But if you're a Bucs fan, you should at least hope for the guy in your colors to succeed!

Brady
2002 CMP   ATT   CMP%   YDS   AVG   TD   LNG   INT   FUM   QBR   RAT   
16   373   601   62.1   3,764   6.26   28   49   14   5   --   85.7

Manning
2006   
   301   522   57.7   3,244   6.22   24   55   18   7   --   77.0

Brees
2003   
   205   356   57.6   2,108   5.92   11   68   15   4   --   67.5

Smith
2007   
   94   193   48.7   914   4.74   2   45   4   6   --   57.2

Alex Smith isn't anything great, he's partly who I'm equating Freeman to.  As for the Brady and Brees, you're talking about a different era is terms of passing the ball.  Teams didn't throw the ball with as much ease back then as they do today.  The proof of that should be obvious.  Also, technically, if you want to go by games played/started, you should use Brees' 2004 season as an equivalent to Freeman's.  In '04 Brees had a 104.8 passer rating.  With Eli, he was trying to do too much.  He's much more relaxed now.  Freeman IS NOT trying to do too much.  Also, Eli isn't in the Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton group, he's definitely a notch below.  That being said, Eli and QB's like him... Cutler, Romo, Roethlisberger, all had significantly better 3rd years than Freeman... for the record, so did Matt Ryan.  Also, none had a complete collapse from one year to the next.  Though, in Freeman's case, if you look at his numbers in 2010 and separate the good opponents from the bad ones and you will see a tremendous difference in production.

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#97 : September 06, 2012, 10:00:34 AM

If Freeman is our man, he needs to prove it this season. He needs to take charge and call his own plays, and brush off what the OC sends in........

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#98 : September 06, 2012, 10:05:37 AM




Alex Smith isn't anything great, he's partly who I'm equating Freeman to.  As for the Brady and Brees, you're talking about a different era is terms of passing the ball.  Teams didn't throw the ball with as much ease back then as they do today.  The proof of that should be obvious.  Also, technically, if you want to go by games played/started, you should use Brees' 2004 season as an equivalent to Freeman's.  In '04 Brees had a 104.8 passer rating.  With Eli, he was trying to do too much.  He's much more relaxed now.  Freeman IS NOT trying to do too much.  Also, Eli isn't in the Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton group, he's definitely a notch below.  That being said, Eli and QB's like him... Cutler, Romo, Roethlisberger, all had significantly better 3rd years than Freeman... for the record, so did Matt Ryan.  Also, none had a complete collapse from one year to the next.  Though, in Freeman's case, if you look at his numbers in 2010 and separate the good opponents from the bad ones and you will see a tremendous difference in production.
[/quote]

Schiano differs with your point. But nevertheless, like you, I really have no idea which way Freeman's career will I go. I happen to hope it turns out to be a HOF career. But like every other great QB, he will need a team, including coaches, that compete at a high level. Look at what Brady had in terms of coaches and defensive players on his championship teams. Look at the coaching and defense Brees has had in NO. The same can be said for every great QB. Even Marino had Shula. My point is that as a Bucs fan, I hope our team competes at a level that warrants consideration for being named among the greats. And right now, that hope rest in the players on our roster, including Josh Freeman. So I am absolutely rooting for him to excel! Go Bucs!

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#99 : September 06, 2012, 11:56:57 AM




Alex Smith isn't anything great, he's partly who I'm equating Freeman to.  As for the Brady and Brees, you're talking about a different era is terms of passing the ball.  Teams didn't throw the ball with as much ease back then as they do today.  The proof of that should be obvious.  Also, technically, if you want to go by games played/started, you should use Brees' 2004 season as an equivalent to Freeman's.  In '04 Brees had a 104.8 passer rating.  With Eli, he was trying to do too much.  He's much more relaxed now.  Freeman IS NOT trying to do too much.  Also, Eli isn't in the Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton group, he's definitely a notch below.  That being said, Eli and QB's like him... Cutler, Romo, Roethlisberger, all had significantly better 3rd years than Freeman... for the record, so did Matt Ryan.  Also, none had a complete collapse from one year to the next.  Though, in Freeman's case, if you look at his numbers in 2010 and separate the good opponents from the bad ones and you will see a tremendous difference in production.

Schiano differs with your point. But nevertheless, like you, I really have no idea which way Freeman's career will I go. I happen to hope it turns out to be a HOF career. But like every other great QB, he will need a team, including coaches, that compete at a high level. Look at what Brady had in terms of coaches and defensive players on his championship teams. Look at the coaching and defense Brees has had in NO. The same can be said for every great QB. Even Marino had Shula. My point is that as a Bucs fan, I hope our team competes at a level that warrants consideration for being named among the greats. And right now, that hope rest in the players on our roster, including Josh Freeman. So I am absolutely rooting for him to excel! Go Bucs!
[/quote]

I agree with you on the coach / QB relationship.  I think the perfect match could yield tremendous results.  I'm with you in hoping that the Schiano / Freeman match is that perfect one.  I'm just not expecting it because I don't think Freeman is the right QB... for any coach.

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#100 : September 06, 2012, 12:14:16 PM

Think about this. He goes from Lumpkin to Martin. Martin can actually run the ball and can make plays catching it. Lumpkin didnt run well and didnt make plays when he caught the ball. How much does that help your QB out??

You guys are acting like BLOUNT wasn't on the team last year.

I like Blount but not as a catching and making plays kinda back. He will make plays in the run game though. He didnt really get a lot of chances to show that he could (for some reason LOLson prefered Lumpkin). So he wasnt really out there a whole lot. Martin will be great for Freeman. Not only can the guy make plays on the ground but can be an excellent last resort for Freeman. He didnt have that last year.

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#101 : September 06, 2012, 01:23:58 PM

Josh had a bad year last year.   Whether it was the lack of talent around him, trying to do too much, being so far behind so quickly...most likely a combination of all of these factors.   For those who blame Josh for the 10 losses in a row (and you know who you are)...I could have sworn there were 52 other players and a coaching staff who shared the responsibility for the stinkfest that was the last 10 games of 2011.

I find it simply remarkable how many alleged Bucs fans are sitting back and hoping Josh doesn't succeed...to what end?  So you can crow about how you were right all along?   A BUCS fan hopes like hell that Josh returns to 2010 form and becomes our franchise QB for the next 15 years...so we can concentrate on other needs in the draft/free agency.   Only those with a personal agenda root for their team's QB to fail...or gloat in that failure.   

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#102 : September 06, 2012, 01:39:10 PM

Fan confidence in Josh Freeman appears to be at an all time low.....according to my fantasy football draft........Oh brother. I've already wasted to much on time on this thread.

I'm going to keep bumping this. I'm blown away you people actually try to discuss anything with Java.

\\\\\\\"This forum needs a poster like BucNY now more than ever\\\\\\\"
      - Everyone

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#103 : September 06, 2012, 02:10:40 PM

You are going to keep bumping my thread because you are blown away that anyone would respond to it?    Good thinking.


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#104 : September 06, 2012, 02:17:53 PM

Josh had a bad year last year.   Whether it was the lack of talent around him, trying to do too much, being so far behind so quickly...most likely a combination of all of these factors.   For those who blame Josh for the 10 losses in a row (and you know who you are)...I could have sworn there were 52 other players and a coaching staff who shared the responsibility for the stinkfest that was the last 10 games of 2011.

I find it simply remarkable how many alleged Bucs fans are sitting back and hoping Josh doesn't succeed...to what end?  So you can crow about how you were right all along?   A BUCS fan hopes like hell that Josh returns to 2010 form and becomes our franchise QB for the next 15 years...so we can concentrate on other needs in the draft/free agency.   Only those with a personal agenda root for their team's QB to fail...or gloat in that failure.   

The QB is always tied to the wins losses. Same with the HC. Thats just the way the fans are. I think what I love about Schiano is his talk about Accountability and how this is a team game. Everybody needs to be working hard towards the goal. Together. Does Freeman need to be one of the leaders of the team? Of course he does. He needs to play well like everybody else does. Last year he didnt. Nobody did. The whole team was awful. Thats how we lost 10 games in a row. Why Raheem is fired. They did not play well as a team. Not even for a quarter in those 10 losses. Schiano is gonna have these guys playing smart and doing their jobs right. Freeman needs to play smart again. He cant go out there and force things like last year. Id also like to see him back as the mobile QB he was in 2010. That is such a valuable asset to have on an offense. It can really confuse a defense when its working. Hes got that ability. Dont try to be Peyton Manning or Brees. Just go out there and be the Josh Freeman we drafted. If he does that we will be fine.
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