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TBayXXXVII

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#30 : October 02, 2012, 01:43:54 PM

Here's the thing... it's not about just wanting to fire Schiano now, it's about what could happen in December/January.  If this team wins 3 or 4 games this season, don't you think Dominik gets fired?  I do.  I think most here do as well.  Now, if they fire Dominik, don't you think the new GM will want a coach and a QB that you can trust?  Do you think that a quality/experienced GM will feel confident in Freeman after being say 8-24 (for example), the past 2 seasons?  I don't.  Do you think the new GM will feel comfortable in Schiano's ability to lead the team into the next era?  I don't.  If he doesn't, you know what's going to happen?  They'll going into 2013 with virtually the same team and end up with the same results.  If that happens, they'll scrap the entire thing and start all over again.  Do you want that?  I don't.  After this season, they should fire everyone and get a new GM who brings in a competent coach and staff.  Sign a guy like Trent Edwards or Jason Campbell and draft a new QB.  They'll still have Jackson and Williams to throw to.  Martin and possibly Blount to hand to and possibly an improving defense.
No one is going to want a GM job where you have a head coach with 4 years and $20 million left on a contract. All GM's want to hire their own coaches.

If the team goes 4-12 or 5-11, it's going to be because Freeman is terrible. While all GM's are ultimately responsible for who they pick, Dominik should have enough insulation around himself to weather the Freeman pick by blaming as much as he can on Morris. He's not getting fired.

I don't know about that.  What insulation?  (note, the following is based on the assumption that 2012 ends with a 4 or 5 win season).  He's hired 2 coaches who've had 3 losing seasons in 4 years... on top of that, all 3 losing seasons will have 5 wins or less.  It's not like they were 7-9 or even 8-8!  He's brought in a 1st round bust in Freeman (and possibly Martin - not sure what to make of the kid yet).  Multiple 2nd round busts in Price, Benn, potentially Bowers, and traded away another one for Winslow.  In 4 years, the only draft picks that I think are going to pan out are McCoy, Williams, Clayborn, Barron, and David.  You can throw in Foster too I guess, he seems to be much improved.  So basically, he's added 1.5 legitimate players per year.  That's not good enough.  How about free agents?  Name one quality free agent he brought in before over-paying the guys he brought in before the season?

CBWx2

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#31 : October 02, 2012, 01:44:30 PM

Would upgrading nearly half the starters on both sides of the ball help alleviate that fact?

in the long term id say we upgraded...but in the present?

LT - no upgrade
*LG - upgrade
*C - upgrade
RG - no upgrade
RG - no upgrade
TE - no upgrade
*WR1 - upgrade
*WR2 - upgrade
RB - no upgrade
FB - no upgrade
QB - no upgrade

LE - no upgrade
*DT - upgrade
NT - no upgrade
RE - no upgrade
WLB - rookie
MLB - no upgrade
SLB - no upgrade
CB - no upgrade
*CB - upgrade
S - no upgrade
S - rookie

I'd say you are looking at the word "upgrade" in any way that supports your position. The fact that David and Barron are rookies doesn't mean that they aren't upgrades. Anyone with half a brain and an unbiased outlook can tell you that even after just 4 games, it's as clear as day that David and Barron are far superior to Geno Hayes and Sean Jones.

Barber is a better safety than he is a corner at this point in his career, and given that Tanard Jackson literally only played in half the games of Morris' tenure (24 out of 48), we'd be comparing him to Cody Grimm and Corey Lynch as well. Not even close.

And as far as  this: "RB - no upgrade"

All I can say is, really dude? Doug Martin/LeGarrette Blount/D.J. Ware isn't an upgrade to Legarrette Blount/Kreg Lumpkin/Mossis Madu?

And lets not even touch the fact that only 3 of the 6 WR's from last season are currently on the roster. Stroughter is as well I suppose, but lets not kid ourselves into thinking that even the guys that they've added off the waiver wire this season aren't an upgrade.

Say whatever you want, but this team is vastly more talented than it ever was during any season Raheem Morris was here. You can blame him for what he did when he was here, but let's not pretend that Schiano inherited anywhere near the same kind of mess that Morris did. A decent coach could take this team to the playoffs THIS YEAR. Schiano is not a decent coach. Maybe he will be one day, but he is not right now.
: October 02, 2012, 01:46:31 PM CBWx2


olafberserker

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#32 : October 02, 2012, 01:45:30 PM

Year four of the so-called rebuild.  We hire an 11 year big easy coach that couldn't even win it.  We follow that home run by hiring the worst dc in giants history and a guy who has never called plays before...this is what you are selling to me?  What a joke.   Year number four.  If we ditch josh and start over at qb...what then?   All of you trashing freeman are nuts.  We need that kid to pull it out or we're really screwed.

+1

I know the NFL is a copy cat league, but the Glazers and Dominick are the worst copy cats in the NFL. In 2009 they wanted to be the next Pittsburgh Steelers, who won the Super Bowl in 2008, so they hired a young, African American coach who they thought could be the next Mike Tomlin. Next time around, they claim they want to be the next NY Giants because they had just won the Super Bowl, and so they hire a strict disciplinarian ala Tom Coughlin, and a bunch of Giants cast off assistants.

What they don't get is that you can't become a team by hiring someone who looks like the guy you are trying to copy. Stop coming up with some asinine vision and looking for someone who fits the mold, and actually look for someone who has their own vision. That's what they did when they hired Dungy. That's what they did when they hired Gruden. Why they decided to get away from that is a mystery to me.

What's crazy is that I think they were on to something when they courted Chip Kelly. I have no clue how you can look at Chip Kelly one minute, and then settle on someone like Greg Schiano when that falls through. You couldn't find two more unsimilar coaches. This tells me that they were pretty much clueless as to what they were trying to accomplish in this coaching search they dragged out, and perhaps the reason it dragged was because they were so clueless, not because they were being diligent.
You could be right or you could be completely wrong, but this is a well thought out and well reasoned post.

but how can you say that Schiano doesnt have his own vision?
Everyone has a vision. Raheem Morris had a vision.

Agree but that doesnt mean it will have the same results. I dont know how anybody could have their mind made up about this regime right now. Way too premature.
I'm not saying anyone should have their mind made up. I like to stir the pot, but my mind isn't made up. However, even if you support Schiano you should certainly recognize the potential he could suck. Coaches are hired to be fired. Whether CBW is right or not, I think he presented a valid argument that for two straight coaching hires, the Glazers looked at what the popular kids are doing and tried to copy them.

that's an assumption and one that I personally think is wrong

BucBalla85

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#33 : October 02, 2012, 01:46:43 PM

Year four of the so-called rebuild.  We hire an 11 year big easy coach that couldn't even win it.  We follow that home run by hiring the worst dc in giants history and a guy who has never called plays before...this is what you are selling to me?  What a joke.   Year number four.  If we ditch josh and start over at qb...what then?   All of you trashing freeman are nuts.  We need that kid to pull it out or we're really screwed.

+1

I know the NFL is a copy cat league, but the Glazers and Dominick are the worst copy cats in the NFL. In 2009 they wanted to be the next Pittsburgh Steelers, who won the Super Bowl in 2008, so they hired a young, African American coach who they thought could be the next Mike Tomlin. Next time around, they claim they want to be the next NY Giants because they had just won the Super Bowl, and so they hire a strict disciplinarian ala Tom Coughlin, and a bunch of Giants cast off assistants.

What they don't get is that you can't become a team by hiring someone who looks like the guy you are trying to copy. Stop coming up with some asinine vision and looking for someone who fits the mold, and actually look for someone who has their own vision. That's what they did when they hired Dungy. That's what they did when they hired Gruden. Why they decided to get away from that is a mystery to me.

What's crazy is that I think they were on to something when they courted Chip Kelly. I have no clue how you can look at Chip Kelly one minute, and then settle on someone like Greg Schiano when that falls through. You couldn't find two more unsimilar coaches. This tells me that they were pretty much clueless as to what they were trying to accomplish in this coaching search they dragged out, and perhaps the reason it dragged was because they were so clueless, not because they were being diligent.
You could be right or you could be completely wrong, but this is a well thought out and well reasoned post.

but how can you say that Schiano doesnt have his own vision?
Everyone has a vision. Raheem Morris had a vision.

Agree but that doesnt mean it will have the same results. I dont know how anybody could have their mind made up about this regime right now. Way too premature.
I'm not saying anyone should have their mind made up. I like to stir the pot, but my mind isn't made up. However, even if you support Schiano you should certainly recognize the potential he could suck. Coaches are hired to be fired. Whether CBW is right or not, I think he presented a valid argument that for two straight coaching hires, the Glazers looked at what the popular kids are doing and tried to copy them.

that's an assumption and one that I personally think is wrong

That was what I was going to say.

BuccanAy

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#34 : October 02, 2012, 01:46:58 PM

Is it any wonder we dont sell out the stadium with fans like this?  My God, you people are pathetic!  We have the worst fan base, BY FAR, in the country.  Did you people really think we were goin to the Super Bowl this year? WOW!!!  After getting BLOWN out for 10 straight games, I knew this was a BAD team, and was gonna take awhile to fix.  I wanted to see improvement and wanted us to be competitive in games rather than being b!tch-slapped every Sunday.  We're MORE than just competitive, and we're MUCH better than at any point last year.  My God, I've never seen a more CLUELESS bunch.

Feel Real Good

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#35 : October 02, 2012, 01:48:42 PM

Whether CBW is right or not, I think he presented a valid argument that for two straight coaching hires, the Glazers looked at what the popular kids are doing and tried to copy them.

that's an assumption and one that I personally think is wrong
So you don't think a case could be made they looked at what the Steelers and Giants were doing and were inspired to hire Morris and Schiano because of it?

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

olafberserker

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#36 : October 02, 2012, 01:49:45 PM

Tony Dungy started off 0-5 and then 1-8, just saying

chace1986

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#37 : October 02, 2012, 01:54:58 PM

How is this regime better than the two previous ones?

The first thing that pops into my head is getting rid of overhyped players.

Only than that, it's a little premature to make any declarative statements on the current regime.  Somethings I like, other things I don't -  but they should at least get one season under their belt before any conclusions are reached.

Next in line: Davin Joseph.


Until preseason, you stay classy Red Board.

olafberserker

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#38 : October 02, 2012, 01:55:29 PM

Whether CBW is right or not, I think he presented a valid argument that for two straight coaching hires, the Glazers looked at what the popular kids are doing and tried to copy them.

that's an assumption and one that I personally think is wrong
So you don't think a case could be made they looked at what the Steelers and Giants were doing and were inspired to hire Morris and Schiano because of it?

I think it's a real stretch that those were significant reasons why the hires were made

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#39 : October 02, 2012, 01:57:07 PM

Whether CBW is right or not, I think he presented a valid argument that for two straight coaching hires, the Glazers looked at what the popular kids are doing and tried to copy them.

that's an assumption and one that I personally think is wrong
So you don't think a case could be made they looked at what the Steelers and Giants were doing and were inspired to hire Morris and Schiano because of it?

Yea because the Giants hired a guy from the college ranks too. Great argument!

TBayXXXVII

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#40 : October 02, 2012, 01:59:17 PM

Tony Dungy started off 0-5 and then 1-8, just saying

Tony Dungy was one of the 5 best defensive coordinators in the NFL for 4 years before he was hired.  He was also in the NFL for 14 years prior to his hire, just saying.

Booker Reese

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#41 : October 02, 2012, 02:02:23 PM

Here's the thing... it's not about just wanting to fire Schiano now, it's about what could happen in December/January.  If this team wins 3 or 4 games this season, don't you think Dominik gets fired?  I do.  I think most here do as well.  Now, if they fire Dominik, don't you think the new GM will want a coach and a QB that you can trust?  Do you think that a quality/experienced GM will feel confident in Freeman after being say 8-24 (for example), the past 2 seasons?  I don't.  Do you think the new GM will feel comfortable in Schiano's ability to lead the team into the next era?  I don't.  If he doesn't, you know what's going to happen?  They'll going into 2013 with virtually the same team and end up with the same results.  If that happens, they'll scrap the entire thing and start all over again.  Do you want that?  I don't.  After this season, they should fire everyone and get a new GM who brings in a competent coach and staff.  Sign a guy like Trent Edwards or Jason Campbell and draft a new QB.  They'll still have Jackson and Williams to throw to.  Martin and possibly Blount to hand to and possibly an improving defense.
No one is going to want a GM job where you have a head coach with 4 years and $20 million left on a contract. All GM's want to hire their own coaches.

If the team goes 4-12 or 5-11, it's going to be because Freeman is terrible. While all GM's are ultimately responsible for who they pick, Dominik should have enough insulation around himself to weather the Freeman pick by blaming as much as he can on Morris. He's not getting fired.

I think FRG is on the right track here.

The Glazers signaled their support by giving him a long deal - there's no way he's gone in year 1, 2, or probably even 3. It would take a special kind of debacle.  I think there are some circumstances where Dominik could be fired, but it's going to depend on how the season plays out - which players play well, which ones don't, and which ones internally are credited or blamed on Dominik.  I also think Schiano's input would go a long way toward determining his fate as well - if Schiano considers him helpful to the cause he stays, if he's an obstacle he goes.

And if Dominik does get the blame, the alternatives aren't necessarily pretty - they are either someone internal (see for example Detroit post-Millen) or someone from outside whom Schiano can control.  Because FRG is right - it's not going to be an attractive gig when the coach has 4 years to go on his deal. 

CBWx2

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#42 : October 02, 2012, 02:04:35 PM

Quick question regarding our OC and DC. What organization do both of them have roots with? Yeah, that Giants comment is WAY off base.  ::)


Feel Real Good

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#43 : October 02, 2012, 02:06:34 PM

Quick question regarding our OC and DC. What organization do both of them have roots with? Yeah, that Giants comment is WAY off base.  ::)
That's a real stretch.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

GameTime

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#44 : October 02, 2012, 02:06:35 PM

Everyone has a vision. Raheem Morris had a vision.

not real sure thats what CWB wrote though.

\"Lets put the O back in Country\"
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