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Dolorous Jason

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#435 : January 02, 2013, 05:06:27 PM

Bucballa is right.

If he becomes a great player for us no one is going to care where he was picked . Bottom line.

As many 1st rounders that become complete busts and never contribute at all , it would not be the end of the world to have a great safety who was picked a little early.

What is your point? I was wrong? Ok. You win. I was wrong.

           

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#436 : January 02, 2013, 05:09:43 PM

It's pretty simple. Decide who is the 10th best CB in the league and then who the 10th best S is. Look at how much they're getting paid. Chances are the 10th best CB is making $10 million per season and the 10th best S is making $5 million per season. That's all you need to know about who it's ok to use a high draft pick and only get an above average CB and it's not ok to use it on an above average S.




The 10th highest paid cornerback in 2012 was Antonio Cromartie. He got paid $8.2M

The 10th highest paid safety was Dashon Goldson. He got $6.2M.

Not sure what this proves, but those are the numbers.
: January 02, 2013, 05:11:17 PM JDouble

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#437 : January 02, 2013, 06:40:53 PM

Bucballa is right.

If he becomes a great player for us no one is going to care where he was picked . Bottom line.

That's my line of thinking. Its not guaranteed that Claiborne will be a stud and where Barron was chosen matters not to me.

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#438 : January 02, 2013, 07:28:52 PM

where Barron was chosen matters not to me.

Says the guy who has complained 100's of times about Caddy being picked at #5.


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#439 : January 02, 2013, 07:29:05 PM

I get where Samari is coming from. He doesn't word it very well, but safety is NOT a high value position. Taking safeties in the top 10 is not common. So when a team takes a safety at #7 it does put unrealistic expectations on him. So honestly he probably will be considered a bust by many if he does not live up to those standards of guys like Reed and Polumalu. Those unrealistic standards were caused by the Bucs organization though, not Barron.

More than any other position, great safeties and running backs can be found, and are consistently found in the mid to late rounds. There just isn't value in taking a safety in the 1st round, especially the top 10....unless he is that elite Reed/Polumalu type of freak.

Those expectations are not "unrealistic".  He was expected to be a pro-bowl level guy.  He was almost certainly going int the top half of round one.  He was expected to be at least close in performance to those types of guys, it's not like we reached on a guy with a second round grade.  While I'm not a big believer in positional value, FRG has a point -- safety is a place where you can comparatively easily get a "good" guy there, and the difference between differing talent there is pretty small unless you really have an elite guy there.  And the impact of an elite guy there isn't as dramatic as one in a different spot.

When the pick was made we all heard about how he was drafted because ot the "importance of S in Schiano's scheme: and that the defense was going to go around him.  Has anyone here seen anything resembling the potential for that to happen yet?  Calling him a bust is foolish at this point, but pretending he has been anything other than a massive disappointment is delusional. 

And with all that said, I think a huge part of the issue with him has been coaching, followed by horrible scheme and playcalling, so hopefully he can eventually come around for us.

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#440 : January 02, 2013, 07:45:41 PM

I get where Samari is coming from. He doesn't word it very well, but safety is NOT a high value position. Taking safeties in the top 10 is not common. So when a team takes a safety at #7 it does put unrealistic expectations on him. So honestly he probably will be considered a bust by many if he does not live up to those standards of guys like Reed and Polumalu. Those unrealistic standards were caused by the Bucs organization though, not Barron.

More than any other position, great safeties and running backs can be found, and are consistently found in the mid to late rounds. There just isn't value in taking a safety in the 1st round, especially the top 10....unless he is that elite Reed/Polumalu type of freak.

Those expectations are not "unrealistic".  He was expected to be a pro-bowl level guy.  He was almost certainly going int the top half of round one.  He was expected to be at least close in performance to those types of guys, it's not like we reached on a guy with a second round grade.  While I'm not a big believer in positional value, FRG has a point -- safety is a place where you can comparatively easily get a "good" guy there, and the difference between differing talent there is pretty small unless you really have an elite guy there.  And the impact of an elite guy there isn't as dramatic as one in a different spot.

When the pick was made we all heard about how he was drafted because ot the "importance of S in Schiano's scheme: and that the defense was going to go around him.  Has anyone here seen anything resembling the potential for that to happen yet?  Calling him a bust is foolish at this point, but pretending he has been anything other than a massive disappointment is delusional. 

And with all that said, I think a huge part of the issue with him has been coaching, followed by horrible scheme and playcalling, so hopefully he can eventually come around for us.
Extremely well said.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#441 : January 02, 2013, 07:48:21 PM

NFL Network draft analyst Mike Mayock on Tampa Bay safety Mark Barron: I love this kid because his floor and ceiling are the same thing. His ceiling is to be a Pro Bowl safety; his floor is to be a Pro Bowl safety. Thats how good this young man is.

FRG is the most logical poster on this board.  You guys just don\'t like where the logical conclusions take you.

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#442 : January 02, 2013, 07:55:14 PM



And the impact of an elite guy there isn't as dramatic as one in a different spot.



I gotta say no to this part. Guys like Reed and Palumolu make as much impact as any pass rusher or cornerback. Elite is elite and it really doesn't matter where they play.

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#443 : January 02, 2013, 07:57:34 PM

NFL Network draft analyst Mike Mayock on Tampa Bay safety Mark Barron: I love this kid because his floor and ceiling are the same thing. His ceiling is to be a Pro Bowl safety; his floor is to be a Pro Bowl safety. Thats how good this young man is.



I believe that quote was before the season IIRC ?


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#444 : January 02, 2013, 08:07:14 PM

I think it is ok to expect him to be a pro bowler. Every top 10 pick should be expected to play on a pro bowl level.

Expecting him to be on the level of Reed or Polumalu is different. They aren't just pro bowlers. They are the best there has ever been. They are both 1st ballot HoFers. There is quite a big gap between a typical pro bowl safety, and Reed/Polumalu.

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#445 : January 02, 2013, 08:20:33 PM

9 times out of 10 if you pick a safety in the top-10 you will be disappointed. It is always a bad value pick.

The real problem is that we drafted the kid because we needed him for Coach Schiano's defense, and after one year it's apparent that this defense won't work at the NFL level. If it is a "wasted" pick that would be the reason why. Now we have an average safety playing in a below average defense, and still have two holes at CB.

Hopefully, if we get an NFL defense next year, we can see what the kid can do. You really can't blame the players who are attemptimg to make this scheme successful. Our corners looked like pro bowlers playing versus Atlanta in the cover two defense. That is reality.



 

Mike Glennon
6\' 7\" 220 pounds.
6\' 6\" 210
6\' 5\" 200
6\' 4\" 190 6\' 3\" 180 6\' 2\" 170 6\' 1\" 160  6\' 0\" 150 How does he compare to your favorite QB?

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#446 : January 02, 2013, 08:30:15 PM

I get where Samari is coming from. He doesn't word it very well, but safety is NOT a high value position. Taking safeties in the top 10 is not common. So when a team takes a safety at #7 it does put unrealistic expectations on him. So honestly he probably will be considered a bust by many if he does not live up to those standards of guys like Reed and Polumalu. Those unrealistic standards were caused by the Bucs organization though, not Barron.

More than any other position, great safeties and running backs can be found, and are consistently found in the mid to late rounds. There just isn't value in taking a safety in the 1st round, especially the top 10....unless he is that elite Reed/Polumalu type of freak.

Those expectations are not "unrealistic".  He was expected to be a pro-bowl level guy.  He was almost certainly going int the top half of round one.  He was expected to be at least close in performance to those types of guys, it's not like we reached on a guy with a second round grade.  While I'm not a big believer in positional value, FRG has a point -- safety is a place where you can comparatively easily get a "good" guy there, and the difference between differing talent there is pretty small unless you really have an elite guy there.  And the impact of an elite guy there isn't as dramatic as one in a different spot.

When the pick was made we all heard about how he was drafted because ot the "importance of S in Schiano's scheme: and that the defense was going to go around him.  Has anyone here seen anything resembling the potential for that to happen yet?  Calling him a bust is foolish at this point, but pretending he has been anything other than a massive disappointment is delusional. 

And with all that said, I think a huge part of the issue with him has been coaching, followed by horrible scheme and playcalling, so hopefully he can eventually come around for us.
Extremely well said.

+1. One of the better posts I've read on here in a while.


Hell, brees might not be as accurate as manziel.

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#447 : January 02, 2013, 08:32:46 PM

Brother Grimm, you have become a broken record.

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#448 : January 02, 2013, 08:38:27 PM

It doesn't take a genius to figure out this defensive scheme isn't any good. I'm not expecting you to pick up on that anytime soon.


Mike Glennon
6\' 7\" 220 pounds.
6\' 6\" 210
6\' 5\" 200
6\' 4\" 190 6\' 3\" 180 6\' 2\" 170 6\' 1\" 160  6\' 0\" 150 How does he compare to your favorite QB?

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#449 : January 02, 2013, 09:07:51 PM

Any defense would suck with the CBs we had this year. Get yer head out yer ars.

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Pewter Report  >>  Boards  >>  The Red Board (Moderators: 3rd String Kicker, PRPatrol)  >>  Topic: In Hindsight....Should the Bucs have stayed at #5 and drafted Morris Claiborne ? « previous next »
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